I agree, Seven/Chakotay again would be creepy regardless of who was taking advantage of who (whom?).
Full Circle Review Thread (Spoilers)
- Thread starter Kirsten Beyer
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I agree, Seven/Chakotay again would be creepy regardless of who was taking advantage of who (whom?).
Re C/7, I don't necessarily think there would be any taking advantage going on per se - but I still would loathe to see that pairing again. I hated it the first time round, and even with Janeway out of the picture I still wouldn't want to read about it, which is why I'm slightly nervous for Unworthy. As sad as I am about the death of Janeway, it was handled beautifully in Full Circle - but re-introducing C/7 would feel to me a bit like kicking us Janeway and J/C fans while we're down.
Janeway is my favourite character in Trek and yet her death wasn't a dealbreaker for me to read Full Circle - I was very excited for the book and enjoyed it very much, as heartbreaking as it was. C/7, however, would be.
Buuuut this probably isn't the right place for this conversation; I am still working on a Full Circle review, honest!
Janeway is my favourite character in Trek and yet her death wasn't a dealbreaker for me to read Full Circle - I was very excited for the book and enjoyed it very much, as heartbreaking as it was. C/7, however, would be.
Buuuut this probably isn't the right place for this conversation; I am still working on a Full Circle review, honest!
I may have already said this, but there's no reason why the only possible relationship between two individuals would be the kind that earns a slash between their initials. Chakotay and Seven of Nine have had traumatic experiences that have drawn them closer. I'm sure Kirsten can do something more interesting with that than simply throw them in bed together. People can have all kinds of relationships with one another, not just a single kind.
It took me ages to work out where I'd read B'Elanna's "faking her death" story before, when I finally remembered ENT's relaunch with Trip. It was as illogical here as it was there.
That said, it was a good read. I think the thing I could compare it to most at the moment is the pilot of the Terminator TV series. It takes familiar characters, adds new ones with extreme backstories and personalities in order for them to stand up next to the old characters, while putting the old characters in new situations. Not all of the new ideas are good ones, but hopefully those will be soon left behind, with the better ideas expanded upon.
I'm not sure I'll continue reading the Voyager series, but I'll keep an open mind when October rolls around. I'll probably have had time to re-read this by then.
PS. Particular praise to Chakotay's storyline (and the Lost quotage!) and a quick question: Will Montgomery ever get around to reading Cambridge's official evaluation?
That said, it was a good read. I think the thing I could compare it to most at the moment is the pilot of the Terminator TV series. It takes familiar characters, adds new ones with extreme backstories and personalities in order for them to stand up next to the old characters, while putting the old characters in new situations. Not all of the new ideas are good ones, but hopefully those will be soon left behind, with the better ideas expanded upon.
I'm not sure I'll continue reading the Voyager series, but I'll keep an open mind when October rolls around. I'll probably have had time to re-read this by then.
PS. Particular praise to Chakotay's storyline (and the Lost quotage!) and a quick question: Will Montgomery ever get around to reading Cambridge's official evaluation?
QFT - Thank you!!!
It's just that it's so much simpler (and "hotter") to just get them in bed than have them actually work at their problems...
@ main topic:
I'm at about page 450, so 100 pages still to go... but I love this book. I never thought I'd say that about a VOY book! I absolutely adore Cambridge (that first meeting with Chakotay was priceless!) - and honestly, I felt more regret about Jarem Kaz's death than I'd have thought possible given that I darkly remember him from the first two VOY-relaunch books but haven't read any VOY-books since then. But he really came across as a very interesting character, even given the Borg-nanites which, of course, tread a fine line. I think the grief about Janeway was handled beautifully all the way, also the introduction of what's up with Seven... I'm already looking forward to continue my reading-marathon. (but I simply had to take a break. *g*)
The only criticism is the focus on B'Elanna and Klingons in the first half of the book - I'm just not into that Klingon mysticism...
I liked the B'Elanna and the Klingons (sounds like a 70's rock group!) story more than I thought I would. When it was first introduced in the Golden novels, I thought it too similar to what was going on with Benjamin and Kasidy in the DS9 novels. The DS9 version makes more sense, given what was revealed about Benjamin.
Re: B'Elanna faking her death, keeping secrets from her friends, acting over-the-top, etc:
In the course of the tv series, B'Elanna almost always acted first, before thinking things through. She got better as time passed, but, I think, with the safety of her child at stake, she would be twice as likely to revert back to her old ways. When she was on Voyager, she was surrounded by people who anchored her and tempered her temper (as it were.) She was acting on her own gut feelings in this situation. When the constant arguing with her didn't accomplish anything, Tom reached the point where he knew he had to sit back and let her play it through her way.
@Kirsten - McGuinness? Cool! You'll never recognize the place anymore. Here are a few before and after pictures: http://mustangps.org/MA+.html
I taught at St. James from 1982 - 93. We fed into Mount St. Mary's (wooooo, crosstown rivalry!)
I've got feelers out on the pharmacy/hamburger joint. I'll find it, or at least where it was.
Well, in the meantime I finished the book... and can say with absolute certainty that Batiste is a jerk. Granted, something seems up health-wise, but the way he eavesdropped on Chakotay's evaluation and pushed for his dismissal... add to that the spineless Montgomery...
Loved the Chakotay-Cambridge session and how they finally manage to find common ground, I also didn't detect anything romantic in the way Chakotay dealt with Seven which is a very good thing (see above). I'm really looking forward to what's going to happen next with those 2.
I'm still not sure about B'Elanna's storyline. I mean, on some level I understand her actions, but how many people did she unwittingly hurt, including herself, Tom and Miral? And honestly, does she think her reappearance won't make it into any comm-messages from the D-Quadrant back to Earth and therefore maybe to the Klingons?
Anyway, I'm already looking forward to Unworthy.
Loved the Chakotay-Cambridge session and how they finally manage to find common ground, I also didn't detect anything romantic in the way Chakotay dealt with Seven which is a very good thing (see above). I'm really looking forward to what's going to happen next with those 2.
I'm still not sure about B'Elanna's storyline. I mean, on some level I understand her actions, but how many people did she unwittingly hurt, including herself, Tom and Miral? And honestly, does she think her reappearance won't make it into any comm-messages from the D-Quadrant back to Earth and therefore maybe to the Klingons?
Anyway, I'm already looking forward to Unworthy.
So what if it does? The Klingon cult that after B'Elanna doesn't have slipstream drive. As long as she and Miral stay in the DQ, they might as well be on the other side of the galaxy.
Oh, wait a minute -- they are!
^ If that was the case, why didn't Tom, B'Elanna and Miral just take the slipstream shuttle straight there instead of making everyone think she's dead?
Never hurts to have some redundancy in your plans. "They know where we are but can't reach us" is the fallback position. "They don't know we're alive" is better.
Because if they believe she's dead, they'll stop looking for her.
But that's exactly what would be revealed were she to reappear. And since Klingons already took a voyage into the D-Quadrant upon themselves on the chance to find the child... why shouldn't those Klingons do so as well, especially given their obsession about Miral - and now they even know who exactly they're looking for... And the off-chance that the cult doesn't have slipstream drive... Well, why not offer the Klingons (not the cult per se but the Klingon government) a chance to join the Full Circle mission on some basis of intercultural collaboration? I guess, the warriors, even if just one of them, could be in the D-Quadrant faster than anyone thinks.
Sorry, but that whole plan doesn't make sense. If she'll stay dead and Tom somehow goes missing, joining his family, that's one thing - but the way it reads right now...
Still a bad call.
It's only "revealed" if the Klingons are reading the Voyager books.
Why would they continue looking for someone they know is dead? And not hanging-with-Q-drinking-coffee dead, either, but blasted-to-atoms-along-with-billions-of-others-and-confirmed-by-Federation-DNA-match dead. And really, do you believe B'Elanna or Tom would be so stupid, after going through the faked death, to light up a neon sign once they hook up again, flashing the message, "HA HA HERE WE ARE, SAFE FROM THE STUPID KLINGONS!!"?
Let them. It took those first Klingons two generations to reach the nearer part of the Delta Quadrant.
What do you mean, off-chance? They definitely don't have it. It's a brand-new technology, and at the moment, there are only ten ships known to possess it and they're all Starfleet. It's still an experimental drive system. It'll be years, maybe decades, before it's widely available. Don't look for trouble before there's any reason to expect it.
Now you're just manufacturing an arbitrary premise that would lead to the situation you're proposing. That's putting the cart before the horse. Why would the Klingon government want to join the mission? They're not explorers, as a rule. They have no interests at stake in the Delta Quadrant. They have a ton of rebuilding to do at home in the wake of the Borg invasion, and their priority is probably going to be securing their borders and rebuilding their defense force. They'd be happy to let Starfleet handle the long-range exploration mission; that's what Starfleet would do anyway, so let them expend the resources and share what they learn with the Klingons.
Besides, why assume that any random Klingon would be able to discover the crew composition of a Starfleet vessel operating kiloparsecs away? I'm sure that Starfleet is competent to handle classified information. Presumably the members of the expedition would be able to keep their mouths shut about B'Elanna's presence if they knew there was a good reason to keep it secret, or if they were ordered to do so.
Who says the Klingons have no interest in the D-Quadrant? It's not as if project Full Circle would be advertised, so they wouldn't *know* about it... at least not now. Granted, right *now* the situation I was proposing would be far-fetched, but that could change during VOY's longterm mission.
It's not that B'Elanna and Tom would need to "light up a neon sign once they hook up again, flashing the message, "HA HA HERE WE ARE, SAFE FROM THE STUPID KLINGONS!!"" - but the knowledge that she's alive would reach the A-Quadrant, also where exactly she and Miral are to be found (i.e. coordinates of VOY)...
Yes, right *now* the Warriors don't have slipstream-technology. But they are fanatics and have nothing if not the determination, they'll find out that Miral's alive (it's not as if SF command has no information leaks after all), know *where* she is and they'll find a way to get to her. And about there being no reason why the crew shouldn't include B'Elanna's reappearance in their reports... we're not talking about VOY alone but about 9 ships, 8 of which have no prior acquaintance with B'Elanna. If SF officers can be trusted so much, why didn't B'Elanna inform Janeway of her plans - she was even afraid that her former captain and friend could somehow "betray" her plans, what would B'Elanna think about absolute strangers?
I don't think it's too farfetched - as I said, we are dealing with fanatics who stop at nothing to get their mission accomplished.
Her/their plan is a good one, I'm not arguing that - unless B'Elanna rejoins VOY's crew. Then all the careful planning and staging of their deaths would be quite useless - I mean, as someone else said, if it was just about getting away, she could have just used her shuttle and slipstreamed into the D-Quadrant, and Tom could have just joined her without them leaving a message. It's not as though they had been without any means of "disappearing" into the unknown after all.
It's not that B'Elanna and Tom would need to "light up a neon sign once they hook up again, flashing the message, "HA HA HERE WE ARE, SAFE FROM THE STUPID KLINGONS!!"" - but the knowledge that she's alive would reach the A-Quadrant, also where exactly she and Miral are to be found (i.e. coordinates of VOY)...
Yes, right *now* the Warriors don't have slipstream-technology. But they are fanatics and have nothing if not the determination, they'll find out that Miral's alive (it's not as if SF command has no information leaks after all), know *where* she is and they'll find a way to get to her. And about there being no reason why the crew shouldn't include B'Elanna's reappearance in their reports... we're not talking about VOY alone but about 9 ships, 8 of which have no prior acquaintance with B'Elanna. If SF officers can be trusted so much, why didn't B'Elanna inform Janeway of her plans - she was even afraid that her former captain and friend could somehow "betray" her plans, what would B'Elanna think about absolute strangers?
I don't think it's too farfetched - as I said, we are dealing with fanatics who stop at nothing to get their mission accomplished.
Her/their plan is a good one, I'm not arguing that - unless B'Elanna rejoins VOY's crew. Then all the careful planning and staging of their deaths would be quite useless - I mean, as someone else said, if it was just about getting away, she could have just used her shuttle and slipstreamed into the D-Quadrant, and Tom could have just joined her without them leaving a message. It's not as though they had been without any means of "disappearing" into the unknown after all.
This was one of those Trek books I finished pretty quickly it was that good so thank you Kirsten. I agree with others on here about how this could have been two separate books. These were two different stories that it felt like 2 different episodes. Also, to my knowledge, this was the 2nd longest Trek book in some time the last being Crucible which was
about 100 pages longer.
Now, on to my thoughts and comments:
1) Why does it take halfway through the book for Chakotey to admit he was in love with Janeway when we, as viewers and readers sorta knew this already?
2) Chakotey should have realized himself that he wasn't fit for command early on instead of having us sit through till the end for him to realize this. It just seems like it drags on till the Epilogue. He needed closure yes but couldn't you have done it earlier? Is Starfleet that oblivious that they couldn't see it right away? And what will happen to him now that he retired? Will Starfleet let him off the hook that easily?
3) Why is Seven not being called Annika if she is no longer Borg?
4) That whole scene with Troi and Tuvok was a complete waste and not at all sensical. Wouldn't Tuvok had already known about her death months earlier? How is it Troi knew and not him? Not really plausible if you ask me..
5) So Kerovi is mentioned and we find out about the mission and why it's urgent and then the story takes a 180 to tell us about a mother/daughter story and Chakotey.. and Kerovi appears again later briefly... Again, why can't Starfleet order them to go and they don't even get punished?
6) I know Voyager has the experience with the Delta Quadrent but why are they going to check to see if the Calier and Borg are truly gone when they have no knoweldge or encounters with them? Shouldn't Enterprise and Titan be the ones to go or accompany them since they encountered and met them? Speaking of which....
7) Why doesn't Admiral Montgomery or Batiste order Seven to accompany Voyager seeing as she used to be a Borg? Would make sense right?
8) Unworthy will continue the story began in Full Circle I take it?
Kirsten,
Aside from my comments, this was an excellent read and I enjoyed it immensly as I did your last one. In fact, your part of the String Theory was the best out of the other two so I was glad that my second book of yours didn't dissapoint as well and I look forward to reading Unworthy six months from now and any other Trek you may brewing on the horizon.
about 100 pages longer.
Now, on to my thoughts and comments:
1) Why does it take halfway through the book for Chakotey to admit he was in love with Janeway when we, as viewers and readers sorta knew this already?
2) Chakotey should have realized himself that he wasn't fit for command early on instead of having us sit through till the end for him to realize this. It just seems like it drags on till the Epilogue. He needed closure yes but couldn't you have done it earlier? Is Starfleet that oblivious that they couldn't see it right away? And what will happen to him now that he retired? Will Starfleet let him off the hook that easily?
3) Why is Seven not being called Annika if she is no longer Borg?
4) That whole scene with Troi and Tuvok was a complete waste and not at all sensical. Wouldn't Tuvok had already known about her death months earlier? How is it Troi knew and not him? Not really plausible if you ask me..
5) So Kerovi is mentioned and we find out about the mission and why it's urgent and then the story takes a 180 to tell us about a mother/daughter story and Chakotey.. and Kerovi appears again later briefly... Again, why can't Starfleet order them to go and they don't even get punished?
6) I know Voyager has the experience with the Delta Quadrent but why are they going to check to see if the Calier and Borg are truly gone when they have no knoweldge or encounters with them? Shouldn't Enterprise and Titan be the ones to go or accompany them since they encountered and met them? Speaking of which....
7) Why doesn't Admiral Montgomery or Batiste order Seven to accompany Voyager seeing as she used to be a Borg? Would make sense right?
8) Unworthy will continue the story began in Full Circle I take it?
Kirsten,
Aside from my comments, this was an excellent read and I enjoyed it immensly as I did your last one. In fact, your part of the String Theory was the best out of the other two so I was glad that my second book of yours didn't dissapoint as well and I look forward to reading Unworthy six months from now and any other Trek you may brewing on the horizon.
Hey, I didn't just assert that as a random statement -- I explained why it seems unlikely that they'd have an interest. I don't appreciate going to the trouble to construct a plausible case and then having every word of it ignored.
I'm sure that that Federation is making the highest echelons in the Klingon government aware of the project and their findings. After all, they are allies, and that alliance is stronger than ever in the wake of recent events.
Which is exactly my point. What you're worrying about is not likely to become a realistic prospect for years at the very least. Any number of things could change radically in that time. So there's no point in borrowing trouble by worrying prematurely about something that isn't a problem yet and may never become one. There are always plenty of more immediate problems to focus on. If it becomes a credible risk later on, that's the time to expend energy worrying about it. Until then, it's merely a waste of energy that should be focused on more immediate concerns.
Doesn't that directly contradict what you said in the previous paragraph? First you claim that the Klingons would be kept in the dark about the very existence of the project, then two sentences later you claim that the Klingons would be able to get precise, detailed information about the project as if the whole thing were being posted on Facebook or something. You can't make both those claims as part of the same argument.
How? Like I said, the Klingons don't read the Voyager books (militant Janeway fans, the lot of them). So unless someone in the Voyager convoy is willing to accept thirty pieces of silver to send a specific message back to the AQ, the Klingons still think she's dead. Which means that, unless or until some SOB decides to betray them... the plan to fake her death worked.
