Spoilers Foundation Adaptation Series on AppleTV+ (Discussion and Spoilers)

[Brolan]

My theory is they have to destroy the Cleons because the nanites can keep them alive a very long time. Just not in very good condition when they get very old. Maybe they go nuts and they didn’t get Dusk soon enough.

 

[FPAlpha]

Well, that was certainly taking a sledgehammer to the season, its characters and the story overall.

It's been decades since i read Foundation, so memory is hazy at times but i still knew about the twist even if the show twisted it another way. I still prefer the book twist though because the disguise was more intriguing and the reveal that much more shocking.

So since we saw no body ( and no mental kill i think) i assume Bayta/The Mule will still be around in season 4?

Loved the reveal that the second Foundation was on Trantor itself ( i assume that was the intention of that reveal).

Hate the trope of last minute saves/failsafes when they kill off characters and you just know they will come back for the next season. It just devalues their "death" and removes the shock and story impact when we, the audience, know they will come back. I really liked Demerzel and Laura Birn is a fantastic actress butit just cheapens her efforts when they pull that trope.

All considered it was a good season and i liked it a lot and i'm looking forward to the fortunately already confirmed 4th season because that's now an area that i'm totally unfamiliar with as i haven't read past the Mule storyline.

 

[Christopher]

Though most of the stories in I, Robot were based on the idea that it was never quite as straightforward as it appeared on paper.

Yes, as I mentioned. But the point is that none of them were "evil," in the sense of having malicious intent. They were incapable of knowingly doing anything in defiance of the standards of "right" behavior hard-wired into their brains. It's just that those brains, and the situations they encountered, were complex enough that sometimes the Laws and the context interacted in unanticipated ways.

Actually, that story seems to be most applicable, in that it fits with how Demerzel was trying to find ways to resist her imperatives from Cleon 1.

I'm not sure she was trying. People like the Zephyr and Day were urging her to resist, suggesting ways around the restrictions, but she always rejected it. She may have wished she could resist on some level, but I don't think her programming allowed her any volition toward that goal.

Though speaking of robots, we may be heading back to the overtly non-Asimovian robots of season 1. In the interview I linked to earlier, Goyer talks a bit more about the agreement he negotiated with Fox (who owns the adaptation rights to Asimov's robot stories and is developing a new I, Robot project), and that it was strictly limited, something along the lines of "In episode X of Foundation, you can use the words 'three laws of robotics,' in episode Y you can use the name 'Daneel,'" so it's uncertain if a similar license can be struck by the new creative team. On the one hand, the Fox executive involved is a science fiction fan and has been enjoying the show, but on the other hand, he had a direct working relationship with Goyer which led to Goyer being in a position to ask for official permission to use robot-verse elements in the show (reminds me of the co-ownership situation with the adaptation rights for Marvel comics characters, and the reputably detailed breakdown not just on what studios got which characters, but who got which aspects of characters, demarcating a specific "X-Men Quicksilver" and "Avengers Quicksilver," for instance).

Oh, I didn't know that. I assumed they had the rights to the whole thing and that the plan was to bring in more of the robot elements as they went. Given the cliffhanger ending, it's hard to see what they could manage if they're not allowed to mention the Laws or Daneel or any of that history anymore.

My theory is they have to destroy the Cleons because the nanites can keep them alive a very long time. Just not in very good condition when they get very old. Maybe they go nuts and they didn’t get Dusk soon enough.

I think the existential dread of knowing he was going to be executed on a prescheduled day that was looming fast is enough to account for his reaction without reading anything else into it. On top of that, he feared that his reign would be remembered as inconsequential, and he resented that he had to give way to a successor like Day who was essentially useless while he was still fully capable of ruling. Especially with the Prime Radiant predicting the fall of everything if nothing changed. It probably seemed entirely rational to Dusk that letting himself die and give way to a useless Day would have been the catalyst of that downfall, so tearing down the whole system, killing Demerzel (his unpreventable death "clock"), and seizing absolute power would be the only way to save the Empire.

After all, the basic Cleon psyche is narcissistic, which is why Cleon I set up a system whereby all his successors would be him. The idea of being discarded like a used-up part would be intolerable to that kind of psyche, but the three successive Cleons were always trained to think and act as identically as possible, so that the current Dusk would feel that he would live on in Day and Dawn and be willing to accept dissolution. But this season showed us from the start that the system was breaking down and this trio of Cleons had never managed to achieve that unity. Dusk couldn't see Day or even Dawn as a continuation of himself, especially after both of them had betrayed the Empire and abandoned their duties, and after Day had (supposedly) died. They both could've been replaced with backups, but those backups would've had their memories and personalities and thus would have been just as unsuitable as successors. So Dusk saw himself as the only true Cleon left, the only one who could keep Empire alive, and that put him on the defensive and drove him to extreme measures to ensure his survival.

So it wasn't a generic kind of madness. It was a direct outgrowth of the unique circumstances of this particular Brother Dusk. Even if he was driven to extremes of malignancy and paranoia, it was in response to the events we were shown throughout the season.

Loved the reveal that the second Foundation was on Trantor itself ( i assume that was the intention of that reveal).

That is where it turned out to be in the books, IIRC. It was said to be at the other end of the galaxy, but someone realized that if the galaxy is a circle, the other end of a circular path is its starting point. (Yeah, yeah, but don't blame me, blame Asimov.)

 

[FPAlpha]

That is where it turned out to be in the books, IIRC. It was said to be at the other end of the galaxy, but someone realized that if the galaxy is a circle, the other end of a circular path is its starting point. (Yeah, yeah, but don't blame me, blame Asimov.)

It seemed a bit ambiguous to me in the show. They usually met in nature on what could be assumed a standard planet, Trantor is this hyper built up city planet it seems and natural areas rare and perhaps spots reserved for the ultra rich ( my pessimism shining through here ).

Given that the second Foundation doesn't require nearly as much ressources and holdings as the first one could assume they are way more decentralized or mobile, having people present at key points in the galaxy.

But i still wish for it to follow the book for once and have it right under Empire's nose

 

[Christopher]

It seemed a bit ambiguous to me in the show. They usually met in nature on what could be assumed a standard planet, Trantor is this hyper built up city planet it seems and natural areas rare and perhaps spots reserved for the ultra rich ( my pessimism shining through here ).

No, that was a different planet, but they had to abandon it when Pritchard was taken captive, since the Mule would've gotten its location from his mind. Trantor is where they must have relocated to.

 

[Marc]

Loved the reveal that the second Foundation was on Trantor itself ( i assume that was the intention of that reveal).

that is accurate from the books.

In Second Foundation when the First Foundation is searching, one the clues is "Stars Ends" which is a reference from saying/poem/something to Trantor.

It seemed a bit ambiguous to me in the show. They usually met in nature on what could be assumed a standard planet, Trantor is this hyper built up city planet it seems and natural areas rare and perhaps spots reserved for the ultra rich ( my pessimism shining through here

The only space space on Trantor in the books was the imperial garden but after the Empire fell, the planet was sacked and salvaged and the green space eventually returned so that farmers were growing crops (at the same time as being part of the Second Foundation).

My theory is they have to destroy the Cleons because the nanites can keep them alive a very long time. Just not in very good condition when they get very old. Maybe they go nuts and they didn’t get Dusk soon enough.

Clone madness

So since we saw no body ( and no mental kill i think) i assume Bayta/The Mule will still be around in season 4

The Mule does survive in the books and dies in relative obscurity but because of his genetics, it's not a long life.

As with pretty much all of asimov's characters in the original trilogy, we don't see Bayta again but her granddaughter has big role in the the search.

The change also means that Ebling Mis keeps his galAXYY head.

All considered it was a good season and i liked it a lot and i'm looking forward to the fortunately already confirmed 4th season because that's now an area that i'm totally unfamiliar with as i haven't read past the Mule storyline.

After Second Foundation you haven't missed much.

 

[JoseNoodles]

I think the existential dread of knowing he was going to be executed on a prescheduled day that was looming fast is enough to account for his reaction without reading anything else into it. On top of that, he feared that his reign would be remembered as inconsequential, and he resented that he had to give way to a successor like Day who was essentially useless while he was still fully capable of ruling. Especially with the Prime Radiant predicting the fall of everything if nothing changed. It probably seemed entirely rational to Dusk that letting himself die and give way to a useless Day would have been the catalyst of that downfall, so tearing down the whole system, killing Demerzel (his unpreventable death "clock"), and seizing absolute power would be the only way to save the Empire.

After all, the basic Cleon psyche is narcissistic, which is why Cleon I set up a system whereby all his successors would be him. The idea of being discarded like a used-up part would be intolerable to that kind of psyche, but the three successive Cleons were always trained to think and act as identically as possible, so that the current Dusk would feel that he would live on in Day and Dawn and be willing to accept dissolution. But this season showed us from the start that the system was breaking down and this trio of Cleons had never managed to achieve that unity. Dusk couldn't see Day or even Dawn as a continuation of himself, especially after both of them had betrayed the Empire and abandoned their duties, and after Day had (supposedly) died. They both could've been replaced with backups, but those backups would've had their memories and personalities and thus would have been just as unsuitable as successors. So Dusk saw himself as the only true Cleon left, the only one who could keep Empire alive, and that put him on the defensive and drove him to extreme measures to ensure his survival.

So it wasn't a generic kind of madness. It was a direct outgrowth of the unique circumstances of this particular Brother Dusk. Even if he was driven to extremes of malignancy and paranoia, it was in response to the events we were shown throughout the season.

Also in Season 1 we learn that Cleon's DNA had been tampered with at some point centuries ago, and while they may look like him, the clones were drifting (in personality) from the original Cleon as we saw in the subsequent seasons.

 

[thribs]

Should have made Siddig the Mule. He would have been fun as a villain.

 

[Christopher]

Should have made Siddig the Mule. He would have been fun as a villain.

I still find it amusing that they cast Siddig as Ebling Mis, because on my last re-read of the trilogy, I mentally cast Robert Picardo as Mis. I was in the ballpark!

 

[Morpheus 02]

I thought this was an excellent season finale...waaaaaay better than Strange New Worlds.

A whole lot of things came to bear.

For me, the most powerful was Dusk...which i thought was him , at least in part, acting out almost in jealousy of Day's debauchery and lack of caring, whereas he might have been doing everything "proper" his whole life...but at the end, realizing how useless it was, then says "screw it' to everthing that would come after.

we definitely need to find out more about the Mule's set-up and how it all worked out. Despite the complaint of @Christopher i think the show's take could still address his complaint in a way that is satistfying and surprising to the characters (though maybe not the audience).

I wonder, however, if we will have a generational jump for next season? Not too far, but the Mule as an elderly or middle age woman?

I wonder if the new showrunner will carry on the plan or have something different (almost a reflection of the show )


Oh, and Gaal feels like such a betrayer, and untrustworthy.... the way she uses beings and manipulates them to get her goals done. I would assume as some point it comes back to get her?

 

[FPAlpha]

I thought this was an excellent season finale...waaaaaay better than Strange New Worlds.

A whole lot of things came to bear.

For me, the most powerful was Dusk...which i thought was him , at least in part, acting out almost in jealousy of Day's debauchery and lack of caring, whereas he might have been doing everything "proper" his whole life...but at the end, realizing how useless it was, then says "screw it' to everthing that would come after.

we definitely need to find out more about the Mule's set-up and how it all worked out. Despite the complaint of @Christopher i think the show's take could still address his complaint in a way that is satistfying and surprising to the characters (though maybe not the audience).

I wonder, however, if we will have a generational jump for next season? Not too far, but the Mule as an elderly or middle age woman?

I wonder if the new showrunner will carry on the plan or have something different (almost a reflection of the show )


Oh, and Gaal feels like such a betrayer, and untrustworthy.... the way she uses beings and manipulates them to get her goals done. I would assume as some point it comes back to get her?

I don't think it's Dusk being jealous of Day, he was just a symptom of Empire's decay.

He knew that Seldon was right, that Empire was going down and what most tyrants and dictators do when their power is going is to lash out with violence. They're basically going down kicking and screaming and Dusk is a perfect example of that.

 

[Verteron]

I also think Dusk and Day being increasingly unhinged is a symptom of both the genetic drift and also their 'mother', Demerzel, being increasingly uncertain herself and this perhaps bleeding through into their upbringings

 

[Christopher]

I also think Dusk and Day being increasingly unhinged is a symptom of both the genetic drift and also their 'mother', Demerzel, being increasingly uncertain herself and this perhaps bleeding through into their upbringings

That presumes that the Cleons were ever not unhinged. The first Cleon was such a pathological narcissist that he created the entire system to make himself literally synonymous with Empire, and violated Demerzel's most fundamental being to warp her priorities from serving humanity to serving only Cleon at everyone else's expense. He was an absolute monster, and he set things up so that every one of his successors would be exactly like him.

I'll agree that the system is clearly breaking down, but I see that as just losing the guardrails on the Cleons' inherent narcissism and ambition, so that they no longer prioritize serving the system and its continuity over serving their own self-interest.

Which underlines one of the main ways this series departs from Asimov. The books, rather oddly for post-WWII literature, treated the existence of a galactic empire as a good thing, a necessary defense against lawless barbarism, and nobody in the series ever seemed to consider democracy as a viable third option. But the show has been pretty unambiguous that the Empire is evil and deserves to end.