Follow up Legal cases

[Mojochi]

It's insane to think that any time there are only two people of a race alive, either of them is sole arbitrer of justice for the other.

That's because it's never happened before, or if it has or would, then how could it be otherwise? If two people were the only inhabitants of Mars, of course they're going to be the arbiter of fulfilling justice in the event of one's criminality to the other.

It's not the same as the Duras situation. Duras had voluntarily entered into a legal duel.

But Worf is a Federation citizen, which has no such thing. I've often argued that he, as a serving Starfleet officer, should get drummed out of service for it, but I don't think he should have to be tried for murder in the Federation, because it was a cultural observance that they choose to respect. I really don't see how it's any different for Data.

Lore had been disabled and neutralized as a threat, and could have easily been captured alive at no risk to anyone else.

Which is what happened. Deactivation isn't a death sentence in itself for them, nor is disassembly either, & if he is to remain disassembled forever, essentially ceasing his life permanently, then that is a judgement passed, & likely in no small part based on the recommendations of the only other person of their kind.

They didn't let Lore remain disassembled because they trusted Data's judgment. They did it because they conveniently considered androids people when they liked them and objects when they disliked them.

Agree to disagree on both counts

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

The renegade Ferengi from Rascals. The Ferengi Alliance wanted no part of them.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

That's because it's never happened before, or if it has or would, then how could it be otherwise? If two people were the only inhabitants of Mars, of course they're going to be the arbiter of fulfilling justice in the event of one's criminality to the other.

So then if your country ever faces an apocalypse, and the only survivors are you and a far right Evangelical, that person should have the right to give you the death sentence for not being sufficiently Christian to him?

By that logic, Lore was equally right to mind control Data.

Worf was on Federation land when he fought Duras, under Klingon jurisdiction. By your logic, you should be judged based on the laws of your home country only even when you visit other countries.

 

[Mojochi]

So then if your country ever faces an apocalypse, and the only survivors are you and a far right Evangelical, that person should have the right to give you the death sentence for not being sufficiently Christian to him?

Well, they can try lol

By that logic, Lore was equally right to mind control Data.

Well, he can try lol

By your logic, you should be judged based on the laws of your home country only even when you visit other countries.

Not only... also. If I take my fellow citizen spouse to another country, & murder them, I should have to answer for that in our country too, as well as the country I did it in... & imho, there should probably be some taking of issue at home, if I kill a citizen of that country, even if their country doesn't apparently mind, but there's some leeway there really, at least in that Worf was on Klingon territory, & fighting by their legal code.

Data was dealing with a unique threat from another just like him, & dealt with him according to that standard, which btw was a potentially temporary solution, that could've been further deliberated later by Federation rules also. Data might not have been the only person to decide Lore should stay deactivated & disassembled. He was just the one in position to do so at the time of the threat, but I personally think his recommendations should carry more weight than most, on the subject, just like if I killed my spouse on foreign land. The recommendations of my own country kind of take a bit more precedence, because we're both of that. I'm apt to be judged by that country's laws too, but not only, & perhaps not primarily.

 

[Leviathan]

Law and Order: Next Generation Unit
CSI: Starfleet
Colombo: The Federation Years
Suits. In. Spaaaace.
Night Court: Data Edition.

 

[WesleysDisciple]

oh think the old general from frienship one (Know it was a voyager episode) Would volunteer to be tried for murdering the guy who torres superceded.

Was thinking he probaly felt a bit guilty.

 

[Oddish]

CSI: Starfleet

Just imagine the technobabble!

 

[Tim Thomason]

Lore was created by Federation citizens on a Federation colony in Federation space. If he's a sapient being, which I'm pretty sure they decided he was, he should be automatically granted Federation citizenship and tried under Federation law.

 

[Timo]

You could say that about almost any villain though. Any other villain no matter how dangerous, if you take them alive, you try them for their crimes and send them to jail. Lore and only Lore gets summary death penalty.

How so? Our Starfleet heroes shoot bad guys dead left and right. The feeble excuse of "self-defense" generally does not apply, in a world of stun guns and general Starfleet superiority in numbers and all.

It's their paid day job to eliminate enemies of the state. Why this should exclude UFP citizens is unclear, or conversely it's unclear why the right to trial should not be extended to Klingons or Salt Vampires. But "taking a villain alive" isn't how Starfleet gets to define victory in the general case: many opponents are too slippery for that.

We have still to meet a police force other than Starfleet in the UFP. Or a fighting force other than Starfleet. Yet interestingly enough, we have still to witness a trial that would not be internal to Starfleet, too. TOS started out by establishing that civil crime gets you a stall at the funny farm, and never a punishment, leaving Starfleet the only organization to still practice keelhaulings and the like. TNG expanded on that by having the villains be superbeings or perhaps hypobeings, unsuited for judging or punishment. And both showed Starfleet dishing out field judgement and executions. The rest of Trek sort of has to live in the shadow of that precedent, it now being damned hard to come up with a civil court scene. (Within the UFP, that is; alien courts can still flaunt interesting aspects of Earth's very own culture of judgement, so we're not left completely high and dry.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JirinPanthosa]

How so? Our Starfleet heroes shoot bad guys dead left and right. The feeble excuse of "self-defense" generally does not apply, in a world of stun guns and general Starfleet superiority in numbers and all.

It's their paid day job to eliminate enemies of the state. Why this should exclude UFP citizens is unclear, or conversely it's unclear why the right to trial should not be extended to Klingons or Salt Vampires. But "taking a villain alive" isn't how Starfleet gets to define victory in the general case: many opponents are too slippery for that.

We have still to meet a police force other than Starfleet in the UFP. Or a fighting force other than Starfleet. Yet interestingly enough, we have still to witness a trial that would not be internal to Starfleet, too. TOS started out by establishing that civil crime gets you a stall at the funny farm, and never a punishment, leaving Starfleet the only organization to still practice keelhaulings and the like. TNG expanded on that by having the villains be superbeings or perhaps hypobeings, unsuited for judging or punishment. And both showed Starfleet dishing out field judgement and executions. The rest of Trek sort of has to live in the shadow of that precedent, it now being damned hard to come up with a civil court scene. (Within the UFP, that is; alien courts can still flaunt interesting aspects of Earth's very own culture of judgement, so we're not left completely high and dry.)

Timo Saloniemi

Killing somebody while they are fighting back and trying to kill you is very different from killing somebody after you have captured them. That's a pretty weak analogy and extremely poor defense for summary execution of prisoners of war.

 

[Timo]

Ah, but that's where this being Star Trek makes things interesting. In "Vengeance Factor", Riker guns to death the unarmed Yuta. Except

a) she's a weapon herself, thus by design incapable of putting down the weapon and backing off, and
b) she's also by design incapable of ceasing to perform the crime.

Even if handcuffed to the bars of her cell and the keys thrown away, she'd remain a deadly threat constantly engaged in criminal activity - something rarely found in the real world. In turn, chopping Lore to pieces is at most comparable to handcuffing him, with no physical or irreversible harm done, and with even the slight inconvenience only lasting for subjective seconds at most (granted, an eternity for an android, but so is sneezing or, in Lore's case, sneering).

"Capture" in Trek seldom holds relevance. Which is why "jails" also seldom make an appearance, and "handcuffs", a common element in Star Wars, have yet to make their true Trek debut. Although the existence of stun guns also plays a role: the better man can always stun the villain and then walk away, there being no need to torture the villain with freedom deprivation afterwards.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tim Thomason]

"Capture" in Trek seldom holds relevance. Which is why "jails" also seldom make an appearance, and "handcuffs", a common element in Star Wars, have yet to make their true Trek debut. Although the existence of stun guns also plays a role: the better man can always stun the villain and then walk away, there being no need to torture the villain with freedom deprivation afterwards.

FWIW, Arik Soong had those weird sci-fi shackles in the Augment Trilogy, which he apparently wore 24/7 and they magnetized them together when necessary.

DS9 showed us handcuffs (non-magnetized, apparently) multiple times (Eddington in Blaze of Glory, Bashir in Inquisition, plus several times in arguable Bajorans use), and Voyager once (Lessing in Equinox). Oh, and Burnham and friends in Context is for Kings.

All the 24th century appearance of handcuffs was done to and by Starfleet officers, and the archaic 22nd century version was done to a civilian scientist but by a Starfleet prison system. The context in Context is for Kings is that Starfleet was in charge of imprisonment for those four, only one of which (Michael) appears to be familiar with Starfleet as an officer.

 

[dupersuper]

How so? Our Starfleet heroes shoot bad guys dead left and right.

Well, they stun them left and right...

 

[Oddish]

Unless they're Jem'Hadar. But, it can be argued that given their extreme genetic programming and lack of free will, the Jem'Hadar are more automata than people.

 

[Timo]

Kirk stuns his foes, even during a declared war. Riker kills his foes, even when they are down for the count or not yet quite born. Burnham kills her foes as a matter of course. All the approaches appear valid, as said heroes never face negative consequences for their actions. We could argue this is chiefly due to the nature of the foes: they have forfeited their right to exist way worse than the average human criminal ITRW ever manages to. Although sometimes we can attribute the instant death sentences to the heroes painting themselves in an extended-self-defense corner where their crew of hundreds is in mortal danger if the single hero shows the slightest mercy to an enemy who may be temporarily weakened.

In the end, Starfleet is the Federation's killing machine, and our heroes its employees. Whether the killing we witness is part of their job as the soldiers of the UFP, or as the police of the UFP, is simply difficult to tell in specific cases.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[dupersuper]

Riker kills his foes, even when they are down for the count

Timo Saloniemi

When???

 

[Oddish]

Aside from Yuta and a bunch of obnoxious Pakleds, I don't remember Riker behaving that way either.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Ro divulges that she was tasked by Kennelly to offer Orta weapons, violating the Prime Directive, but I doubt they were ever going to give him any. They certainly hadn't yet. "Oh, you attacked us... Here's some weapons. Please stop." Doesn't sound like a well advised strategy imho

I think it makes more sense to look at it through the lens of the Reagan weapons trading scandals.

 

[Oddish]

Keneally wasn't trying to arm Orta's group, he was trying to kill them. With the Cardassians as his chosen murder weapon.

 

[Orphalesion]

Aside from Yuta and a bunch of obnoxious Pakleds, I don't remember Riker behaving that way either.

I guess...maybe that clone of himself he killed?