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Fleet construction

Ithekro said:
Scale in space is probably the hardest thing to get across in science fiction.
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That's exactly what I'm getting at here. 8000 light years sounds "big" for an interstellar superstate in the way that "eight thousand miles" sounds big for a country.

But just ONE light year is incomprehensibly huge on any scale; a region of space one cubic light year across could comfortably hold EVERY STARSHIP IN THE KNOWN GALAXY without any of them being in weapons range of each other. A Federation with 150 members would already have a population between 200 to 600 billion people before you include the populations of their major colonies; 150 planets packed into a region of space 20 to 30 light years across would represent a state, both in population size and in terms of landmass and airspace, several thousand times larger than anything we can currently conceive of.

So if one can assume that a planet could build 600 combat capable ships every 15 years of various types, what can 150 planets do?
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Is it 150 planets? Because Starfleet's main construction yards are depicted as being the Utopia Planitia fleet yards and a handful of other places. For the same reason that I don't see a Federation spanning a LENGTH of 8,000 light years being remotely plausible, I also don't see 149 alien civilizations -- many of whom have been traveling in space for centuries already before joining the Federation -- uniformly adopting the designs and technology of an alien race they only met a few years ago. Just for economic reasons alone, it makes more sense for them to adapt the best of Federation technology to their own native designs and improve them accordingly, based on their own science and engineering.

If any of those 150 worlds even bother to build ships of their own, it's unlikely those ships belong to Starfleet (or are recognizeable as common Starfleet designs). Vulcan, for example, still builds a separate type of starship in the 24th century, a design reminiscent of its pre-Federation technology (which was already damn good). The Andorians probably build their own ships too, and we know for a fact the Benzites have their own fleet with their own peculiar regulations.

Earth may gather the resources and funding of its many member worlds, but it's not a 150 planet shared effort. Starfleet is the BIGGEST and most important of the Federation's fleets, apparently the only one with deep space capability, and the only one allowed by law to participate in declared hostilities. This is probably due to the adherence to the Prime Directive, which makes Starfleet the only one the Federation can TRUST to do this (knowing, as they do, that the Federation won't send Starfleet to bully members or prospective members into staying/joining against their will).
 
Ithekro said:
For World War One, the United States built well over 250 "four stacker" destroyers of the Wickes and Clemsom-classes...
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At a time when the vast majority of America's industrial base was strictly devoted to military construction. This for a set of destroyers that were essentially cannonfodders and were meant to be built -- and destroyed -- in appalling numbers just so the enemy would have more targets to shoot at. At the same time, they only managed to produce a few dozen fleet carriers, which is where the real "meat" of the navy was.

This is an analog to the DOMINION, not the Federation. The Founders did indeed build tens of thousands of Jem'hadar attack ships, hundreds of cruisers and a few dozen battleships. But this is "huge numbers of ships" in the same sense that a swarm of bees is a "huge number of life forms."

World War II was a war of attrition, where the most successful tactic used by both sides was "drown the enemy in your own soldiers' blood." This is the kind of war the Dominion fights, it's not something the Federation has ever attempted to do, or for that matter, has ever been good at (now the Klingons, on the other hand...)

With Starfleet's hull numbers in the mid 70000s during the Dominion War, With ships as low as the 2000s still in service, It seems logical that Starfleet would have a few tens of thousands of ships in operations, thought a thousand of them might be runabouts.
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The operational lifespan of most starships is given at being 20 to 40 years old. Hathaway and Stargazer are outliers, but both are depicted as being in service WAY past their prime and well overdue for replacement.

This leads to three questions:
1) How many of those 40,000 or so major starships are actually still in service?

2) Why did the old "overworked and underpowered" ships like Stargazer not get replaced by one of its tens of thousands of contemporaries?

3) Why is the Federation suddenly building 680 ships a year when in the previous century they only needed to build 6 or 7?

The answer to #3 is pretty obvious: 90% of those hull numbers refer to runabouts (your "10,000 tanks" in this analogy).

The answer to #2 is also obvious: Starfleet is trying to use the ships it has and doesn't often replace them.

#1 is the only one that's still complicated.
 
For World War One, the destroyers were mainly there to provide convoy escort against raiders and later submarines

For World War Two, however, your analogy is incorrect. There were a lot a destroyer actions in the Pacific between American and Japanese destroyers, many of which were considered large for destroyers. As large as the previous generation's light cruisers, and with as much or more firepower. Some of these engagements were with larger ships, but usually without. By World War Two a destroyer can be a threat to a capital ship via its torpedoes, and a threat to cruisers via their guns and torpedoes.

In World War One the destroyer (or properly a Torpedo Boat Destroyer) was designed at the start to destroy torpedo boats would could threaten even the largest ships in numbers, as capital ships up to that point were not built to take torpedo hits. During the war, these destroyers got large as they needed more room to operate anti-submarine weapons, and to counter the other side's destroyers, which now also mounted torpedoes that could sink any ship. American destroyers of the age were mostly terrible, but had a rather large number of torpedoes for their time. (The British didn't need to build destroyers as cannon fodder, they already had lots of cannon fodder...the pre-dreadnought era battleships and cruisers. What they needed were escort ships).

For Starfleet that would be the smaller ships verses Jem'hadar attack ships. These Jem'hadar ships are a threat to larger Federation starships, but typically a runabout is not suited to engage them. Ships like the USS Centaur seem suited for such an engagement, along with the older Miranda-class, the newer Saber-class, and of course the overpowered Defiant-class. The Excelsiors seem suited to engage the older Galor-class vessels. The smaller ships also allow for more trade routes to be patrolled for piracy during peacetime with leass crew needed per ship verse the larger modern cruisers and explorers.
 
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did you make ANY attempt to prove that Delta Vega is a Federation outpost? Because I really doubt that it is.
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Hmm. It features hardware that is compatible with Constitution class ships, is labeled in English, and uses the exact same type of push-button interface currently in fashion aboard the Constitutions. The heroes know all about how the place operates. Its operations include amenities for humans, such as the human-sized brig labeled "restricted area" and the nearby "dispensary".

Moreover, Delta Vega is right next to the starship after her misadventure into the Galactic Barrier. An incredible coincidence - or a "base camp" (or, rather, the fourth in a series, as in Delta) in a carefully orchestrated push into unprecedented depths of space, far beyond the usual UFP borders? The so called Vega Project, perhaps (as the location cannot have anything to do with the star Vega)?

Incidentally, if the latter, then it also makes sense that the designation "Delta Vega" would be randomly applied to a different location in a different timeline... But I digress.

The Galactic Barrier is a rather well-defined quantity in TOS. We learn that it has (supposedly) not been penetrated by Earthlings before Kirk's mission. We learn that it has not been studied all that carefully by Earthlings, either, as many of its characteristics even before the penetration surprise our heroes. When revisited in "In Truth", the region is specifically considered a past Enterprise adventure rather than a region more generally known to the Federation. It can hardly be argued to be UFP turf in "By Any Other Name", either.

All in all, there seems to be plenty of evidence that Delta Vega is of UFP origin, yet the sole UFP presence in the region, and even then a normally uncrewed installation without the means or will to explore the surroundings much. Since it can be crewed, though, the UFP apparently has designs for the region...

All that said, learning everything there's to learn about Delta Vega still doesn't tell us anything at all about the spatial extent of the UFP. After all, it's impossible to tell where Delta Vega is located in galactic terms. Its position is dictated by a completely fictional phenomenon - and it is that fictional phenomenon that also sharply defines the edge, rim or border of the galaxy, independently of the "real" shape or size of said galaxy.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Any ship that could fight was thrown into battle, and a devastating number were destroyed.

I think that for many years Star Fleet would be short of large ships. Building a large ship seems to be a long term project, and there would be relative few ship yards able to do so.

What would you build in the mean time?

Something in the Miranda size range?

I'm thinking that Ju 'days might also be useful. I understand that these were originally small freighters, which proved to be useful as combatants. Star Fleet would purchase as many as they can.
 
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Timo said:
did you make ANY attempt to prove that Delta Vega is a Federation outpost? Because I really doubt that it is.
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Hmm. It features hardware that is compatible with Constitution class ships, is labeled in English, and uses the exact same type of push-button interface currently in fashion aboard the Constitutions. The heroes know all about how the place operates. Its operations include amenities for humans, such as the human-sized brig labeled "restricted area" and the nearby "dispensary".
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All of which makes it a HUMAN outpost to be sure. There's still some question as to whether or not that station was setup by the Federation or a corporate entity acting outside of Federation territory.

Ithekro said:
For Starfleet that would be the smaller ships verses Jem'hadar attack ships. These Jem'hadar ships are a threat to larger Federation starships, but typically a runabout is not suited to engage them. Ships like the USS Centaur seem suited for such an engagement, along with the older Miranda-class, the newer Saber-class, and of course the overpowered Defiant-class.
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And not having NEARLY enough of those to keep up with the Dominion, the use of fighter craft and/or as many runabouts as they could get their hands on as a stopgap would be indicated. After all, we only ever saw one ship like the Centaur, and that one was operating totally alone in deep space.

Again, the bird of prey is the closest equivalent to the Jem'hadar attack ship. The Miranda is a MUCH larger and slower design and the Defiant, while similar in size, packs ten times its weight in firepower. The Federation simply doesn't have a proper equivalent.
 
Guess it depends on if it is scaled to its Excelsior bits or its Miranda rollbar.

It seemed to be around the size of the Jem'hadar attack ship that Captian Sisko was commanding.
 
Tim Walker said:
How large are Centaurs compared to the other ships mentioned? The Mirandas, Defiants, and bug ships?

In one thread it was commented that the Centaur is smaller than the Miranda.

www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=210835

Oops! I'm having trouble posting the link.
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Ithekro said:
Guess it depends on if it is scaled to its Excelsior bits or its Miranda rollbar.

It seemed to be around the size of the Jem'hadar attack ship that Captian Sisko was commanding.
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It also had the bridge from the Miranda model. Which would definitely make it small, but I've always had trouble seeing it as small.
 
All of which makes it a HUMAN outpost to be sure. There's still some question as to whether or not that station was setup by the Federation or a corporate entity acting outside of Federation territory.
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I'd argue the telltale interface design at least suggests a Starfleet facility specifically. But my bet still is for "acting outside of Federation territory", which is what Starfleet does a lot. As said, many other things about the Galactic Barrier speak against it being part of UFP proper or even anywhere near that entity; Delta Vega does not make or break that deal.

The Federation simply doesn't have a proper equivalent.
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Why would "fighting fire with fire" be a preferred approach? If the Dominion builds those small battlebugs, and the Federation builds cruisers that can handle twenty of those at a time, then the Dominion may lose the war on logistical grounds right there.

That the Dominion never was at risk of losing the war on logistics (despite really being just a beachhead force completely cut off from home turf!) isn't a reason to drop the cruisers and start building small craft, either. Perhaps the right way to go would have been to build even bigger ships, capable of crushing a hundred of 'em bugs at a time?

Guess it depends on if it is scaled to its Excelsior bits or its Miranda rollbar. It seemed to be around the size of the Jem'hadar attack ship that Captian Sisko was commanding.
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Apart from all the "seemed" stuff, she had a very definite position in the food chain: she would challenge a single Jem'Hadar battlebug, but ran away at the sight of three.

So making her bigger than the Defiant or the average BoP would beg the question of why she isn't proportionately powerful and capable of handling a trio of the opponents. Keeping her at the size dictated by the Miranda components would make her smaller than those two comparison designs, and justifiably weaker.

We only ever saw that one ship up close, plus another one near SB 375 but at a distance. Does it mean Starfleet has very few of those? Might just be that Starfleet has thousands, but dispersed in lone hunts much like submarines of yore would be dispersed. Big attack fleets in past wars never took along torpedo boats, for a good reason... And torpedo boats never invited cruisers or battleships to join!

I'm thinking that the brass would see a need to keep the Frankenstein fleet in operation.
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The Yeager specifically doesn't look particularly Frankenstein to me. None of the components are anachronistic, as in the Elkins, say.

The use of both Excelsior and Miranda era components in the Centaur, Curry and Raging Queen doesn't make them particularly implausible, either, as those two eras are known to overlap anyway. And the Jupp is a purebred Miranda contemporary by design while the Hutzel is a purebred Excelsior contemporary. And every ship that has a registry has one appropriate for the seeming design era, all of them preceding the war.

So that only leaves the Elkins as a clear-cut "in-universe kitbash"...

Timo Saloniemi
 
Timo said:
The Federation simply doesn't have a proper equivalent.
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Why would "fighting fire with fire" be a preferred approach? If the Dominion builds those small battlebugs, and the Federation builds cruisers that can handle twenty of those at a time, then the Dominion may lose the war on logistical grounds right there.
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That would be my thinking too: Starfleet prefers quality over quantity and always has.

Historically this doesn't always work out. The German King Tiger tank was notorious for being able to take on entire platoons of Shermans, blasting them to smithereens at (relatively) long ranges, while the Shermans main guns bounced off its armor like spitballs. The Nazis still lost the ground war in the end just because they couldn't build enough Tigers to replace the few that were actually LOST in combat, plus the allies eventually crushed their supply lines and those enormous unstoppable tanks simply ran out of gas and couldn't move anymore.

I could see the Sovereign class being designed (or at least modified/employed) as a bulwark against the zerg rush: a ship that can take on twelve battlebugs at a time and still have enough juice to slug it out with a capital ship afterwards. But since we didn't SEE many Sovereigns during the war and only a handful of galaxies at that, I think the Federation had the same King Tiger problem: quality can beat quantity, but only at huge expense.

So maybe they did BOTH? Built new cruisers that could handle the swarm attacks AND beefed up their fleet with legions of fighters and runabouts in case the cruisers weren't enough? That's the sort of pragmatic thinking you'd expect from Sisko et al.
 
If the Ju 'days were originally designed as civilian freighters, I could see Star Fleet using them as dual purpose vessels. Use for cargo during peace time, and as combatants during war.

That way the ships wouldn't be pure warships, and therefore acceptable. :techman:
 
Crazy Eddie said:
Timo said:
That would be my thinking too: Starfleet prefers quality over quantity and always has.

Historically this doesn't always work out. The German King Tiger tank was notorious for being able to take on entire platoons of Shermans, blasting them to smithereens at (relatively) long ranges, while the Shermans main guns bounced off its armor like spitballs. The Nazis still lost the ground war in the end just because they couldn't build enough Tigers to replace the few that were actually LOST in combat, plus the allies eventually crushed their supply lines and those enormous unstoppable tanks simply ran out of gas and couldn't move anymore.

I think the Federation had the same King Tiger problem: quality can beat quantity, but only at huge expense.

So maybe they did BOTH? Built new cruisers that could handle the swarm attacks AND beefed up their fleet with legions of fighters and runabouts in case the cruisers weren't enough? That's the sort of pragmatic thinking you'd expect from Sisko et al.
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I think the King Tiger problem would apply to the Sovereign class, and especially to the Prometheus.

Maybe Star Fleet was used to using the quality approach for the big exploration cruisers, and carried this attitude over to the design of large warships. With the exploration cruisers this may have been desirable, and the nature of the mission allowed the Federation to get by with small numbers of these ships.

Otherwise, if the Federation's circumstances were so dire, why did they bother to equip the Enterprise-E with a holodeck?
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Crazy Eddie said:
Timo said:
The Federation simply doesn't have a proper equivalent.
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Why would "fighting fire with fire" be a preferred approach? If the Dominion builds those small battlebugs, and the Federation builds cruisers that can handle twenty of those at a time, then the Dominion may lose the war on logistical grounds right there.
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That would be my thinking too: Starfleet prefers quality over quantity and always has.
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Maybe so. But dont forget that quantity has a quality of its own.
 
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