We've been through this before. There is ZERO evidence for a "volume" of demarcated space that actually needs to be "covered" by anything.
we have Picard's canon statement of an 8,000 ly federation. We have WNMHGB showing Federation presence all the way out to the Galactic Rim. We have the canon starchart I linked to with measurable volume that can be measured and calculated.
You need to stop telling untruths. Especially to someone who knows haow to disprove you.
The core Federation worlds are all within about 20 light years of Earth and the space between them is patrolled sparsely enough that the arrival of the whale probe put them completely out of position (so maybe 5 or 6 ships in inter-system patrol in a "Coast Guard" functionality).
1) different timeframe
2) that was the situation at that moment, and not necessarily reflective of the general situation.
Omega Leonis -- now canonically identified as the location of the Klingon Homeworld -- is about 112 light years from Earth.
So what?
If other Federation members are spaced out about that far or slightly closer, then the 23rd century Federation is "spread out" over about 5500 cubic light years.
The canon starchart shows otherwise, as it includes the TOS referenced Fed planets and others.
The 24th century Federation is almost certainly larger and has expanded to include some members farther out than Kronos. But even then, the Federation has never claimed to control every cubic inch of space within that sphere, because that claim would be laughable on its face.
They may not control every cubic ly, but that doesn't mean it's not patrolled by them, or that their ships don't have to cross "neutral space" to get to Federation areas of influence.
Since we know canonically that those areas of influence span space all the way out to the galactic rim those travel distances have to factor into deployment strategies.
Even with that, though, you're overselling their situation by a fairly wide margin. The first battle was the battle for Deep Space Nine. They lost one station and no ships. Immdiately after this, Sisko joins a task force that is a combination of Federation and Klingon warships. In "Time to Stand" what's left of that same task force is shown in retreat, having just had the shit kicked out of it for three consecutive months.
We don't know if it's the same Fleet or not.
Elsehwere, the ninth fleet is also retreating, but it's in even worse shape, with 98 of its ships destroyed and only 14 surviving.
1) Seventh Fleet.
2) We don't know that those 112 ships represented the totality of that fleet at full strength.
These losses are appalling and cringeworthy for a combined Federation/Klingon fleet that maxes out at around 1200 between the two of them.
ZERO proof that the fleet maxes out at that. The math alone says otherwise, as I have shown.
If the Federation had those kinds of numbers ON ITS OWN, loosing 98 ships in 3 months would be called "spring break."
That was the result of ONE BATTLE, not 3 months of battle.
On the other hand, the tallies for fleet numbers also include fighters and small craft of various designs (Jem'hadar bugs, Cardassian Hidekis, Starfleet Peregrines and Ju'days) and pretty much always have,
ZERO canonical evidence for this.
going all the way back to "The Die is Cast" when the combined Cardassian/Romulan fleet got jumped by 150 "Jem'hadar fighters."
More of a task force. And not the main fleets of either power. Those were ships controlled by the Obsidian Order and the Tal Shiar.
Or even earlier, when the computer Rio Grande's computer tells Jake "Three ships coming out of orbit." Those three ships being a Galaxy-class starship and two runabouts.
Yes, technically runabouts are classed as ships, with their own NCC numbers and everything. There is no evidence that the attack fighters are so designated. Nor is there any evidence that runabouts are part of the battle fleets. They were never shown in any fleet formations.
A tally which evidently includes nine waves of attack fighters on the Federation side. If we assume some of those "waves" are fighters that regrouped, then that's a minimum of four separate groups of the little bastards (third and fourth being on hot standby).
Again, ZERO evidence that fighters are "ships" for fleet strength purposes.
Which also means there's an upper limit to how many Cardassian ships can be in the opposing fleet before this tactic completely stops making sense, e.g. "Let's try to lure one hundred of their destroyers out of position so we can dive right through the other six hundred ships that don't bother to move at all."
We KNOW how many ships there are, becaue we are TOLD how many there are (1,254).
OTOH, the Dominion ratio of attack ships to cap ships is usually in the neighborhood of 100 to 1.
Again, ZERO evidence.
If they brought 800 battle bugs, then they have between 60 and 80 cap ships in that formation.
Still zero evidence.
That's about the size of the fleet that took Deep Space Nine the first time; close enough in size that it's probably the SAME fleet combined with Cardassian reinforcements.
Still no evidence.
Of which, if Dominion building practices remain consistent, around 28,000 of them are Jem'hadar attack ships.
Which are still cap ships at least equal to the
Defiant class or a mid-size BoP.
The Cardassians sure as hell never had anything like those kinds of numbers, especially after the thumping they got during the Klingon invasion.
Apparently they did, as they seem to be well-represented in most battle scenes.
But considering that Martok is referring to the number of ships that can quickly make a small adjustment to their warp engines to compensate for the Breen zapper weapon, he's inadvertently given us a solid figure for the size of the Klingon fleet. 1500 ships, around two thirds of which are birds of prey. The bird of prey which is shown in most cases to be equivalent to the Jem'hadar battlebug in terms of size and firepower but slightly superior in overall capabilities.
Contradict yourself much? First you allow that the figure represents only how many ships the Klingons can deploy quickly with the modification, then you try to limit fleet size to just those ships?
The Federation, which never got around to mass-producing the Defiant, doesn't have anything equivalent to the bird of prey or the battlebug it can crank out in those numbers. They'd be lucky to have half that at their peak.
Wrong. There are at least 2 in the fleet scene at the end of "Call to Arms" (other than the
Defiant herself).
http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Unnamed_Defiant_class_starships
There is also the USS
Valiant, trapped behind the lines at the start of the war. There are also two shown in "Message in a Bottle".
And, to respond to your accusation in a later post that MiaB takes place after the war, you are again factually incorrect.
MiaB takes place on stardate 51462 (which would be mid-June of 2374). The war did not end until stardate 52902 (late November of 2375), which is 17 months later.
Realistically, it's closer to a tenth of that. We've already seen in all previous conflicts that groups of 20 to 40 ships is seen as strategically significant in most conventional engagements, to the point that Admiral Hansen once referred to his fleet at Wolf-359 as an "armada."
He was speaking colloquially. It was alson noted that those losses could be made up in "less than a year" by Shelby.
Those normal conventions get tossed out the window in the face of the Jem'hadar Zerg Rush (as the Obsidian Order found out the hard way), but that also means that PRIOR to the Dominion War, it was those conventions that informed Starfleet's (and everyone else's) procurement policy.
Apparently not, since they are seen to have many times that over just a few years later.
Vreenak's point clearly went over your head: a large portion -- as much as half -- of Starfleet has been destroyed by this point of the war and isn't going to be replaced any time soon. They DEFINITELY don't have more ships than the Klingons do, and the Klingons have at least 1500 available.
Then they definitely have more than the pitiful 400 you were assigning them previously.
.
6200, though? The human race hasn't produced that many naval vessels in two centuries of building. You think the Federation was going to build them in a year and a half?
Outside of wartime, we've never needed that many. That said, have you ever heard of Liberty Ships?. The US built 2,710 Liberty ships between 1941 and 1945 at 18 different shipyards. The average construction time was 42 days at it's peak, and shipyards were delivering ~3/day by 1943. The record was set by the team that built the
SS Robert E Perry (4 days and 15½ hours from keel laying to launch, not counting outfitting).
That was with primitive 20th century construction techniques and the resources of just one nation on one planet. Given the vastly superior resources both in both labor and material capacity of the Federation many more ships could be built than that if needed.
Not that they all needed to be built after war's start, because the Federation
already had them, as it must have had as I have shown.
Let's take a high, but more reasonable estimate of each contribution equalling 1/3 of a fleet.
Actually he was probably pulling SPECIFIC elements from those fleets that had what he wanted for his plan. Namely, the fighters and their support ships (the Akiras) and the heavy Galaxy class starships. The rest of his fleet is probably drawn from his original task force in "Call to Arms"
No evidence for any of those assertions. And the shown seenes showed plenty of
Mirandas and E
Excelsiors as well.
I'm not sure what forces Sisko was pulling in from the 9th fleet, but considering we never saw another Defiant class during the war until Starfleet bought them a replacement, I think we finally have an answer for what kind of ships those fourteen die-hards actually were.
Still wrong (see above)
And before you start jumping up and down yelling about "only" 114 ships in the 7th Fleet, I will point out AGAIN that such small numbers would see Starfleet wiped out with only a few encounters
Well, no, it sees the 9th fleet wiped out over the course of three months. Sisko's task force didn't take those kinds of losses and probably neither did any of the others.
1)Seventh Fleet
2) again, ONE BATTLE, not over 3 months.
For the record: there's nothing to suggest that any OTHER fleets besides Sisko's group were even engaged at that point. For all we know, the 9th fleet was THE frontline unit on the Cardassian border and Sisko's force -- arguably, the same joint Federation/Klingon task force that had just won the battle of Torros -- was just a support unit.
Sisko's unit had been engaged, since it was all shot up with fresh fires STILL BURNING in many of it's ships.
The rest of that is pure speculation on your part.
Time to pack it in,
Crazy...the evidence is plainly against you.
)
