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Flat Characters

PhoenixIreland

Captain
Captain
I just watched an episode of TNG for the first time in ages, after a long time of watching DS9 and Voy, and some of the characters seem so flat by comparason to the ones in DS9 and Voyager, not standing alone.

Picard, Data and Worf seemed to be the only ones with any real depth, the rest...ye just don't buy it do you?
Did they not do enough character development with
 
I agree with you that many characters were not developped as much as they could have. But I also think that Roddenberry's vision that the crew be in complete harmony with one another and have no conflict could have been the cause.

And the lack of development really irked me, especially since my favorite character was Dr. Crusher. During the first season, they started to hint at various angles to her character (ex: The Arveda III tragedy, the guilt issues mainly from the captain in regards to her, the obvious attraction toward each other etc...) But then Roddenberry wasn't satisfied with how she was developped as a character and so instead of trying to fix it, he gave her the boot. And when she returned, her development imo stalled altogether perhaps up until the final season where she got to do more stuff such as taking command of the Enterprise and so forth.

Anyway, I know Crusher isn't the most popular character, but for fans of her character, it was a bummer.
 
I agree with you that many characters were not developped as much as they could have. But I also think that Roddenberry's vision that the crew be in complete harmony with one another and have no conflict could have been the cause.

And the lack of development really irked me, especially since my favorite character was Dr. Crusher. During the first season, they started to hint at various angles to her character (ex: The Arveda III tragedy, the guilt issues mainly from the captain in regards to her, the obvious attraction toward each other etc...) But then Roddenberry wasn't satisfied with how she was developped as a character and so instead of trying to fix it, he gave her the boot. And when she returned, her development imo stalled altogether perhaps up until the final season where she got to do more stuff such as taking command of the Enterprise and so forth.

Anyway, I know Crusher isn't the most popular character, but for fans of her character, it was a bummer.

Riker also seemed to fall into a rut after about three seasons. He definitely needed some extra development later in the run. And Troi was horrible the whole time, of course.
 
I agree with you that many characters were not developped as much as they could have. But I also think that Roddenberry's vision that the crew be in complete harmony with one another and have no conflict could have been the cause.

And the lack of development really irked me, especially since my favorite character was Dr. Crusher. During the first season, they started to hint at various angles to her character (ex: The Arveda III tragedy, the guilt issues mainly from the captain in regards to her, the obvious attraction toward each other etc...) But then Roddenberry wasn't satisfied with how she was developped as a character and so instead of trying to fix it, he gave her the boot. And when she returned, her development imo stalled altogether perhaps up until the final season where she got to do more stuff such as taking command of the Enterprise and so forth.

Anyway, I know Crusher isn't the most popular character, but for fans of her character, it was a bummer.

Riker also seemed to fall into a rut after about three seasons. He definitely needed some extra development later in the run. And Troi was horrible the whole time, of course.

True, Riker was also mishandled imo. I know it was difficult to focus on all the characters since it was a large cast, but it wouldn't have been an impossible task to do so either. Other shows have done it. I think TPTB had this direction they wanted to go and stubbornly stayed the course no matter how it hurt certain characters.

Sometimes I think, why couldn't my favorite characters have been Picard or Data? I probably would have been as happy a bee if that were the case. But fans click with whatever character they click with. And it sucks when their favorites get handled much the same way as "man #2 somewhere in the backround".
 
I agree with you that many characters were not developped as much as they could have. But I also think that Roddenberry's vision that the crew be in complete harmony with one another and have no conflict could have been the cause.

And the lack of development really irked me, especially since my favorite character was Dr. Crusher. During the first season, they started to hint at various angles to her character (ex: The Arveda III tragedy, the guilt issues mainly from the captain in regards to her, the obvious attraction toward each other etc...) But then Roddenberry wasn't satisfied with how she was developped as a character and so instead of trying to fix it, he gave her the boot. And when she returned, her development imo stalled altogether perhaps up until the final season where she got to do more stuff such as taking command of the Enterprise and so forth.

Anyway, I know Crusher isn't the most popular character, but for fans of her character, it was a bummer.


Agreed. Bev is my favorite too... :) In fact, I rarely watch episodes from season two. I know there are excellent shows from that season, but she's a big reason I tuned it.
 
I just watched an episode of TNG for the first time in ages, after a long time of watching DS9 and Voy, and some of the characters seem so flat by comparason to the ones in DS9 and Voyager, not standing alone.

Picard, Data and Worf seemed to be the only ones with any real depth, the rest...ye just don't buy it do you?
Did they not do enough character development with

It's not that the characters were flat; if you go back to their original bible descriptions and to EaF, there's a lot of dynamic stuff there. The problem is that the flux in writers and producers in the first season, and to an extent in the second season, along with Roddenberry's "No Conflict" edict left much of those dynamics by the wayside.

Let's see, based on just EaF alone:
Picard, a seasoned captain, who dislikes children but must learn to live with them and deal with his long-dead best friend's son and wife. A man who believed that a family of his own wasn't in the cards, but now could have a chance at a surrogate one.

Riker, a man who doesn't stand down when he's right (example DeSoto and the Away Team incident). A man who wants his own command so bad that he sacrificed his chance at love and happiness, but now has a second chance with the girl he left behind all those years ago.

Crusher, who must now serve with the man who ordered her husband to his death and is raising her son alone because of it. Not only that but she is very attracted to that very man, who is also her commanding officer.

Troi, an exotic alien, with the ability to feel emotions and interpret them. Originally designed to be the smartest person, second to Data, on the ship. Not only must she deal with the unknown alien minds, she also has to deal with the unrequited feelings she has for a man who never said good-bye.

Yar, raised on a failed colony with rape gangs, who had to fight for survival, serves on a ship where her natural instincts must be quelled and sometimes don't fit in with the accepted Starfleet protocols. (She should've been haunted, strong yet somewhat fragile inside but she just came across as bland all around.)

Worf... well that just speaks for itself. The first Klingon in Starfleet.

Data... once again speaks of itself.

Geordi, a blind helmsmen... that's rip for all sorts of antics and drama.

Wesley... well, that just never really worked out on paper or on the show. Too bad for Wheaton, who was an excellent child actor.

There was dynamic characterization in those early concepts, some of which could've lead to interesting, none Soap Opera-ish conflict. The conflict in TNG should've steamed not from petty arguing or a false sense of drama, but from the characters not always seeing eye-to-eye on how to solve the problem of the week. During the first year, I was waiting for a confrontation between Picard and Riker just based on the set-up in EaF. If Riker had gone toe-to-toe with his previous captain, you'd have thought he'd do so with Picard. That damn "No Conflict" edict really hampered the show and the characters. People can still bicker once and awhile and still have an undying respect for each other. Bones and Spock anyone?

The other problem is that the characters, except for the one's you list, were pretty much interchangeable in the episodes. Replace Geordi with Wesley and does the outcome of the episode change, barely. The characters in TNG reacted more than acted. Unlike in TOS, where it's hard to just put Spock in place of Kirk and still get the same result. They were distinct in their worldviews which informed how the plot would develop naturally. At times on TNG, the characters functioned as a means of plot alone especially in those early seasons.
 
Maybe it was just too many chars. With TOS only having the big three it was easier to give them more distinctive traits that made them very individual and very separate. With TNG there was way more than a big three.
 
Maybe it was just too many chars. With TOS only having the big three it was easier to give them more distinctive traits that made them very individual and very separate. With TNG there was way more than a big three.

That excuse doesn't hold much water. Dramas at the time TNG premiered were already becoming more sophisticated and able to support a large cast of characters. For example, Hill Street Blues. The problem was that TNG was still stuck in the older mode of television storytelling and was also chained by Roddeberry's need to expound on his great Utopian vision rather then a need to tell a good, dramatic story.
 
I think Geordi, as a character, gets kind of a bad rap. I actually found him fairly endearing when he wasn't in bossy engineer mode.
 
STNG was a good balance of storytelling and characters. The characters are less archetypal and prob resonate a bit less with the general public than the TOS characters, which were far less developed except for Spock. There were far more stories dedicated to one character or aspects of that character on STNG than anything before. Later Trek series established more character "arcs", but in reality, they were not much better developed than STNG.

RAMA
 
I agree with you that many characters were not developped as much as they could have. But I also think that Roddenberry's vision that the crew be in complete harmony with one another and have no conflict could have been the cause.

And the lack of development really irked me, especially since my favorite character was Dr. Crusher. During the first season, they started to hint at various angles to her character (ex: The Arveda III tragedy, the guilt issues mainly from the captain in regards to her, the obvious attraction toward each other etc...) But then Roddenberry wasn't satisfied with how she was developped as a character and so instead of trying to fix it, he gave her the boot. And when she returned, her development imo stalled altogether perhaps up until the final season where she got to do more stuff such as taking command of the Enterprise and so forth.

Anyway, I know Crusher isn't the most popular character, but for fans of her character, it was a bummer.


Agreed. Bev is my favorite too... :) In fact, I rarely watch episodes from season two. I know there are excellent shows from that season, but she's a big reason I tuned it.

Actually, you're not missing much. Season 2 is probably the worst. There are only a few good episodes mixed in.
 
I agree with you that many characters were not developped as much as they could have. But I also think that Roddenberry's vision that the crew be in complete harmony with one another and have no conflict could have been the cause.

And the lack of development really irked me, especially since my favorite character was Dr. Crusher. During the first season, they started to hint at various angles to her character (ex: The Arveda III tragedy, the guilt issues mainly from the captain in regards to her, the obvious attraction toward each other etc...) But then Roddenberry wasn't satisfied with how she was developped as a character and so instead of trying to fix it, he gave her the boot. And when she returned, her development imo stalled altogether perhaps up until the final season where she got to do more stuff such as taking command of the Enterprise and so forth.

Anyway, I know Crusher isn't the most popular character, but for fans of her character, it was a bummer.

Of all the TNG regular characters, next to Wesley Crusher, Dr. Crusher was certainly the most neglected.

I agree with you too that the Rodennberry perfect people edict of TNG did hurt the development of the characters. Interpersonal conflict between them could've provided another avenue for development and made them more relatable. Despite that edict, or "the box" as Ronald Moore put it, I do think Michael Pillar and the rest of the writers did the best they could to develop the characters. In fact, that was Pillar's agenda when he came aboard for season 3. I think he wisely saw that if the show was going to last, the audience would have to relate and enjoy the characters more, like the original ST. The TNG characters are all pretty likable, if, due to their perfection, occaisionally smug, imo. That said, I agree that some characters (i.e. Picard, Data, Worf), got more love than others (Riker, Geordi, Troi, and Crusher).
 
The most flat character in TNg to me would have to be Geordi laforge. He had arew key episodes like when He was trapped on a planet with a Romulan, When he turned into that blue and brown glowing alien creature, when he and ensighn Ro were out of phase or his little Borg eperiment...but other than those he was just The guy you came to when the ship was in danger, or used as "everbody's friend" or better yet the comedian like relef to Worf and Data.
 
The most flat character in TNg to me would have to be Geordi laforge. He had arew key episodes like when He was trapped on a planet with a Romulan, When he turned into that blue and brown glowing alien creature, when he and ensighn Ro were out of phase or his little Borg eperiment...but other than those he was just The guy you came to when the ship was in danger, or used as "everbody's friend" or better yet the comedian like relef to Worf and Data.

You're right. LaForge didn't get as much attention as the other characters either. He certainly wasn't as fun or colorful as Scotty, who even in the original ST which wasn't based on an ensemble, always managed to steal some scenes.

LaForge was pretty much relegated to advancing the plot (fix this, solve this, etc.) or as a sounding board for Data. He didn't get many episodes where he was featured. It's a shame, since Burton is a fine actor. Ironically, he was probably the most known actor in TNG when the show started thanks to his critically claimed role in Roots.
 
Thank you. I am sure one could make a arguement for Troi or Beverly Crusher but Troi had Riker for arcs and she was on the bridge constantly, plus she had her mother to produce conflict. Crusher had her so, her death of her husband Jck and the relationship with Jean-Luc. Geordi had nothing other than what I stated before and serving as Data's sidekick.

Now to target Worf, a very developed and focused on character.....thanks to Denise Crosby. My theory is that if Crosby who played Security Chief and Chief Tactical Officer Yar din't leave the show, Worf would be like Geordi, underused and not developed. Evidence supports my theory. Look in season 1 before episode 23, Where is Worf ? He is in a red unifourm as a relief con officer, and will float around from station to station, holding the rank of Lieutenant Junior grade.

After Yar's death.... GOLD UNIFORM promotion to full Lieutenant in the Ops division serving as Chief of Security and Chioef tactical officer.
In episodes late ron like yesterdays enterprise when Yar is alive.. where is Worf ? I dont know, i can't remeber him being in that episodes and if he was. he proably was in a red uniform somewhere.

So back top the point i attempted to make.. Worf wouldn't be a a fan favorite or as important in TNG if Crosby did not leave so I think She is to reson for his sucess as a character. After 7 years on TNG where did Worf go... to do a few years on DS9:klingon:
 
Worf wasn't in "YE" obviously because the war probably kept the events that led to him being adopted by humans from happening...
 
Worf wasn't in "YE" obviously because the war probably kept the events that led to him being adopted by humans from happening...
that is very true, the war slipped my mind. Althoughif the war was taken out of the picture and Yar was still alive I dont think his character would of advanced so much.
 
Worf wasn't in "YE" obviously because the war probably kept the events that led to him being adopted by humans from happening...
that is very true, the war slipped my mind. Althoughif the war was taken out of the picture and Yar was still alive I dont think his character would of advanced so much.

Which certainly would have made a pretty huge difference in DS9. It's funny that Denise Crosby only appeared in about 20 episodes, yet had a bigger effect on the Trekverse than several of the main TNG characters.
 
I remember them toying with Gerodis failed love life for a while then quickly abandoning it

They didn't develop Yars character untill long after she was dead with the visit to the colony, with her sister that would have been the perfect way to develop her, making her the tough survivor but giving her guilt for leaving the colony. Then they ruined it by saying she died a meaningless death as a demonstration of armus power....she didnt! She was killed for trying to get to Troi and the damaged shuttle.

Troi started with the god awful "pain....terrible pain" in EaFP and improved later they hit one or two good notes with her like when she lost her powers, took command and tried to get promoted.

The problem with alot of them was they LOOKED like characters, they seemd scripted, not real.

Contrast that with O'Brian, the hardworking everyman who has the love/hate thing going on with his job and a bitch of a wife to contend with.
Contrast it with Tom Paris, whos talented but not perfect, still has his rebel streak.
Outside Picard, Worf and Data they didn't seem to be real.
 
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