Fixing the films....
- Thread starter Warped9
- Start date
So Khan kills Spock's best friend, several of his crew mates, and a whole bunch on innocent people and Spock totally blows it off and helps a murderer escape justice, why because Khan has a sob story's?
Star Trek III, The Search For Ilia.
Which takes are in your version you watched? IMO, those in the theatrical version are decidedly better in pretty much every instance.
Star Trek III, with the basic plot largely the same with some adjustments to remove some plot holes and strengthen some themes. Just some ideas here and there.
-Kruge and company are Romulans.
Always felt like Kruge's motive (though not his personality) felt more in line with the cold pragmatism of the TOS Romulans than the Klingons. The former trying to get their hands on the Starfleet's superweapon also would be ironic echo of Kirk and company getting their hands on a cloaking device from the Enterprise Incident. That's not even getting into how this could play into the potential exploration of Saavik's mixed ancestry.
-From the beginning, the Federation knows something is off about Genesis.
Morrow would explain to Kirk the Federation is very worried about the early instability they've detected on Genesis, because of the potential fallout that would ensue with the likes of the Romulans and Klingons if the supposedly peaceful terraforming technology of Genesis is revealed to be worthless except as a destroyer of worlds.
This explains why there's nothing but a single science vessel there (because Starfleet is terrified of news of a failed Genesis program leaking out), and make David's use of protomatter actually responsible for many deaths, because had the planet been stable from the beginning, the Federation would have been comfortable sending more ships there and Grissom could never had been destroyed.
-Justify Kirk's trek to Genesis.
Sarek reveals that Spock wanted his knowledge to be preserved and requests Kirk bring McCoy to Vulcan so his son's insights (though his emotions and spiritual katra would be extinguished in the process) can live on. Jim reluctantly agrees until Saavik (who did not go down onto Genesis with David at first) sends him a coded message telling him of Spock's seeming resurrection.
This revelation convinces Kirk to instead try and bring Spock's katra and body together which would both fit his character (getting out of the no win scenario of his friend's spirit being lost forever via unlikely solution) and provide an actual reason for them to disobey Starfleet and go to Genesis.
-Move David's death and make it memorable.
The underplayed, almost casual nature of David's death maybe worked on paper, but fell flat on screen. Add some intensity to the film with the Romulans stabbing David (as motivation to Kirk), but not fatally, with a pained Kirk worried about his son's life and driven to destroy the ship rather than let it fall into Romulan hands.
Kruge beams up all but Kirk, David, and Spock, as he recognizes that the Captain especially values the latter two. Fight scene ensues with the Romulan initially getting the better of Kirk and almost killing Spock and then you have David sacrificing his life to save the Vulcan. Thus in the most personal sense, we get a life for a life, with Marcus as an inventor of Genesis completing his role in giving Spock a new life via his death.
Not only does this had some much needed immediate intensity to the fight with Kruge (though some decent music would help), it gives a chance for a real fallout with a scene of Kirk's grief for David on the trip to Vulcan.
Going off of that perhaps its Saavik unexpectedly providing comfort with her telling him that David sacrificed himself for the same reason Spock did (which goes unsaid, but is clearly not just logic). When Kirk laments he's failed his son like he did Spock, she reminds him that he's only failed if he doesn't honor David's sacrifice and give Spock a chance at rebirth.
"You have faced death admiral. If nothing else; for Spock, for David, face life."
Just a smattering of thoughts as I said, but It wouldn't have minded such changes.
-Kruge and company are Romulans.
Always felt like Kruge's motive (though not his personality) felt more in line with the cold pragmatism of the TOS Romulans than the Klingons. The former trying to get their hands on the Starfleet's superweapon also would be ironic echo of Kirk and company getting their hands on a cloaking device from the Enterprise Incident. That's not even getting into how this could play into the potential exploration of Saavik's mixed ancestry.
-From the beginning, the Federation knows something is off about Genesis.
Morrow would explain to Kirk the Federation is very worried about the early instability they've detected on Genesis, because of the potential fallout that would ensue with the likes of the Romulans and Klingons if the supposedly peaceful terraforming technology of Genesis is revealed to be worthless except as a destroyer of worlds.
This explains why there's nothing but a single science vessel there (because Starfleet is terrified of news of a failed Genesis program leaking out), and make David's use of protomatter actually responsible for many deaths, because had the planet been stable from the beginning, the Federation would have been comfortable sending more ships there and Grissom could never had been destroyed.
-Justify Kirk's trek to Genesis.
Sarek reveals that Spock wanted his knowledge to be preserved and requests Kirk bring McCoy to Vulcan so his son's insights (though his emotions and spiritual katra would be extinguished in the process) can live on. Jim reluctantly agrees until Saavik (who did not go down onto Genesis with David at first) sends him a coded message telling him of Spock's seeming resurrection.
This revelation convinces Kirk to instead try and bring Spock's katra and body together which would both fit his character (getting out of the no win scenario of his friend's spirit being lost forever via unlikely solution) and provide an actual reason for them to disobey Starfleet and go to Genesis.
-Move David's death and make it memorable.
The underplayed, almost casual nature of David's death maybe worked on paper, but fell flat on screen. Add some intensity to the film with the Romulans stabbing David (as motivation to Kirk), but not fatally, with a pained Kirk worried about his son's life and driven to destroy the ship rather than let it fall into Romulan hands.
Kruge beams up all but Kirk, David, and Spock, as he recognizes that the Captain especially values the latter two. Fight scene ensues with the Romulan initially getting the better of Kirk and almost killing Spock and then you have David sacrificing his life to save the Vulcan. Thus in the most personal sense, we get a life for a life, with Marcus as an inventor of Genesis completing his role in giving Spock a new life via his death.
Not only does this had some much needed immediate intensity to the fight with Kruge (though some decent music would help), it gives a chance for a real fallout with a scene of Kirk's grief for David on the trip to Vulcan.
Going off of that perhaps its Saavik unexpectedly providing comfort with her telling him that David sacrificed himself for the same reason Spock did (which goes unsaid, but is clearly not just logic). When Kirk laments he's failed his son like he did Spock, she reminds him that he's only failed if he doesn't honor David's sacrifice and give Spock a chance at rebirth.
"You have faced death admiral. If nothing else; for Spock, for David, face life."
Just a smattering of thoughts as I said, but It wouldn't have minded such changes.
III
Rework the opening and closing twenty minutes to something a little more energetic and interesting.
V
Bill...about hiring that Ferren guy to to the visuals...you might want to re-think that one.
GEN onwards
Making TV episodes to be played in cinemas is not a good move guys...
Rework the opening and closing twenty minutes to something a little more energetic and interesting.
V
Bill...about hiring that Ferren guy to to the visuals...you might want to re-think that one.
GEN onwards
Making TV episodes to be played in cinemas is not a good move guys...
I would say: Bill, this story is NOT a comedy.
The day Warped9 can compose a post about anything that came after Star Trek II that doesn't amount to "Damn kids, get off my lawn!" I'll be happy to redact the "old fogies" remark (which I essentially re-appropriated from his own previous post).
People like him think that Star Trek is meant for them and only for them, but when it's shown that this is not really the case, he gets pissy and thinks that they are 'full of it' for betraying the so-called 'vision' that they think Gene Roddenberry had (his reaction to my idea for an anime Star Trek TV show is illuminating in itself.)
What else is new, though?
I. Love. This.
Wow. Someone doesn't care for anime. Fuckin' imagine that. Must be one of only a dozen on the planet.
^How about an audience of millions compared to that of Trekfans? Go to an anime/manga con, look at the number of attendees, the relative youth of said attendees compared to a Star Trek convention, and then get back to me.
Goody for you. Knock yourself out.^How about an audience of millions compared to that of Trekfans? Go to an anime/manga con, look at the number of attendees, the relative youth of said attendees compared to a Star Trek convention, and then get back to me.
^How about an audience of millions compared to that of Trekfans? Go to an anime/manga con, look at the number of attendees, the relative youth of said attendees compared to a Star Trek convention, and then get back to me.
I'm not against an animated series, though I'm not sure anime is the right style for Star Trek. I say this as someone that's a fan of Space Battleship Yamato.
Guys, cool it. It's getting close to personal here.
^How about an audience of millions compared to that of Trekfans? Go to an anime/manga con, look at the number of attendees, the relative youth of said attendees compared to a Star Trek convention, and then get back to me.
I'm not against an animated series, though I'm not sure anime is the right style for Star Trek. I say this as someone that's a fan of Space Battleship Yamato.
Robotech fan here. I agree. Wrong type of animation.
I'd get behind an animated (lots of things you can do with animation you can't with LA), if it were Trek first, and animated 2nd, like the old Filmation series was, and written to a high quality.
Unfortunately, the animation market won't support quality action/drama animation at the present time.
Very interesting discussion. So a thought is that Star Trek movies are a byproduct of their time. One movie at a time. Suppose they did them now sort of the way they are making the Marvel movies. You don't need spin-offs in this case but there is a long term concept.
So say we want to connect STI to STV. First Vger is a big deal weird its never mentioned again. This was their first mistake. Spock is exploring the meaning of life, emotion and logic. This could be an arch that completes itself in STV.
Now STI introduces stuff. Lets meet Some of the Admiralty, like Cartwright and others just named. I like the New Human movement. It would further underscore the changing in the world scaring men like Cartwright. Introduce Chang as well. I would consider tying Vger to the Organa so we could remind people of the forced peace between the Federation and Klingons. The Organa might "ascend" during the story as well. Chang can command one of the 3 D7's attacking Vger. But now he survives because he is smart and now the Ent and the D7 go in together. Much more tension and in the end Chang can betray the Ent and attack Vger from within. Vger can't tell carbon units apart and almost destroys Earth but Kirk stops Chang who realizes his mistake. Spock reaches out to Vger Decker does his thing solid first story.
STII has tensions remain. Federation starts building more ships. Several key Enterprise officers are promoted leaving holes in the crew. IE the need for training replacements. I could see this as a final test to be assigned to the flagship of the fleet. STII plays out same as before except for that underlining tension. Spock dies but its not just because its logical but because he loves the crew as a family.
STIII has the same Genesis problem but we don't get Spock back. Chang sees this as a chance to even the playing field. Tensions are very high, Kirk realizes that he is the middle of a bigger problem and is trying to rescue his son obsessed with saving Genesis, maybe guilty that so many died to see it created. This one could be more Kirk drive wherein STII will be now more Spock driven. So some of the features of "being old now come in." In this story David does not die and Kirk by saving his son is saving himself. David has to let go of Genesis and be flexible, hopeful of future efforts rather than obsession with the past. A theme that will play out in the movies moving forward. Kurge can reveal that this is bigger than he could possibly imagine and that it would be war sooner than later.
STIV is now completely changed. The Ent should be still there. Hated the idea of it being destroyed by a BoP. Haunted by Kurges revelations and now hunted by Starfleet and the Empire. This could be the rebel movie, you have Molts, David, Kristy Alley Savaak and we can meet some new characters as the ship needs more crew. Molts is there, chance to form a nice relationship between humans and Klingons, as he can't go home either. Someone had posted an idea that a Starfleet investigator is the main bad guy. He is now part of a forming plot. Sent by a now powerful Cartwright, fearing what Kirk knows. During this time a "ship" proceeds towards Earth deciding that we are too cruel to survive. A little of what we got in TNG with the Q, but not as boar-ish about it. During the adventure, the voice of Spock reaches out to Kirk and guides him. At first he thinks he is going crazy but eventually just assumes its something psychological he needed to get though a hard time. In the end the crew convince the ship that their worth letting live. They might even say they will be back and the whole thing is kept quite since they are on the run. The crew turns themselves in and the rest is STIV. The conspirators are re-assured that Kirk and his team know nothing. David is made the ships official science officer.
STV is more the fanatic religion angle. So far we now have 2 super beings head towards earth. May see this as something biblical like. IE Sabal searches for his god. Cartwright uses this to strengthen his hawk position even strong. Kirk suspects something so Cartwright sends him after Sabal, not spocks brother just a zealot. Sabal nearly kills Kirk but a Spock returns to help, now don't go crazy this is done a lot, Gandolf and Kenobi so Spock is the resonance of Spock and Vger's mind-meld. He says he is here to help usher in a golden age of peace ie Peace with the Klingons. His presence is kept a secret from most except for Kirk, Bones and maybe David. Savaak does not know. In the end they defeat Sabal but Cartwright is able to play on Savaak's fears that all is lost. She is trying to save her crew, Cartwright telling her that Spock was a "good soldier".
STVI with no more organa. Klingon's and Feds decided its time time to renew the treaty in person. Same as before Chancellor's killed. Savaak is on it, no valaries. Kirk is confronted with years of fear of change. Molts returns having been on Earth as a person seeking political asylum, a tie to Worf, might even directly tie the family together some how. The conspirators try to kill him. You get the sense that things could be better if we can let go of the past, both sides are gearing up for war, we get to see both sides fleets amassing. Spock now reaches out to Savaak and she confesses what she has done. A chance to be a traitor but at the same time redeemed. The story plays out much of the same, in that its a discover who the conspirators are. The signing is the end of the story srt of a huge cheer going out hand shakes and so on. Might figure out a way to push the story not needing a cloak firing BoP. That just seems dumb, that we never see it again. No way that is not used more. Now Chang and Kirk have some history, exchanges are more meaningful, "you are a hard man to kill Kirk." The story ends with an idea that we are trying to evolve beyond who we are. It explains the bubble gum TNG world as the Military part of Starfleet is exposed.
Some keys are death is not the end, but it is for real, no just bring him back. Facing the past and having hope for a brighter future. We can explore religious fanaticism in a none threatening way. Exposes the evils of a hawkish mindset. I think the slow idea that Cartwright and Chang are so fearful of change that they are willing to work together to start a war.
So say we want to connect STI to STV. First Vger is a big deal weird its never mentioned again. This was their first mistake. Spock is exploring the meaning of life, emotion and logic. This could be an arch that completes itself in STV.
Now STI introduces stuff. Lets meet Some of the Admiralty, like Cartwright and others just named. I like the New Human movement. It would further underscore the changing in the world scaring men like Cartwright. Introduce Chang as well. I would consider tying Vger to the Organa so we could remind people of the forced peace between the Federation and Klingons. The Organa might "ascend" during the story as well. Chang can command one of the 3 D7's attacking Vger. But now he survives because he is smart and now the Ent and the D7 go in together. Much more tension and in the end Chang can betray the Ent and attack Vger from within. Vger can't tell carbon units apart and almost destroys Earth but Kirk stops Chang who realizes his mistake. Spock reaches out to Vger Decker does his thing solid first story.
STII has tensions remain. Federation starts building more ships. Several key Enterprise officers are promoted leaving holes in the crew. IE the need for training replacements. I could see this as a final test to be assigned to the flagship of the fleet. STII plays out same as before except for that underlining tension. Spock dies but its not just because its logical but because he loves the crew as a family.
STIII has the same Genesis problem but we don't get Spock back. Chang sees this as a chance to even the playing field. Tensions are very high, Kirk realizes that he is the middle of a bigger problem and is trying to rescue his son obsessed with saving Genesis, maybe guilty that so many died to see it created. This one could be more Kirk drive wherein STII will be now more Spock driven. So some of the features of "being old now come in." In this story David does not die and Kirk by saving his son is saving himself. David has to let go of Genesis and be flexible, hopeful of future efforts rather than obsession with the past. A theme that will play out in the movies moving forward. Kurge can reveal that this is bigger than he could possibly imagine and that it would be war sooner than later.
STIV is now completely changed. The Ent should be still there. Hated the idea of it being destroyed by a BoP. Haunted by Kurges revelations and now hunted by Starfleet and the Empire. This could be the rebel movie, you have Molts, David, Kristy Alley Savaak and we can meet some new characters as the ship needs more crew. Molts is there, chance to form a nice relationship between humans and Klingons, as he can't go home either. Someone had posted an idea that a Starfleet investigator is the main bad guy. He is now part of a forming plot. Sent by a now powerful Cartwright, fearing what Kirk knows. During this time a "ship" proceeds towards Earth deciding that we are too cruel to survive. A little of what we got in TNG with the Q, but not as boar-ish about it. During the adventure, the voice of Spock reaches out to Kirk and guides him. At first he thinks he is going crazy but eventually just assumes its something psychological he needed to get though a hard time. In the end the crew convince the ship that their worth letting live. They might even say they will be back and the whole thing is kept quite since they are on the run. The crew turns themselves in and the rest is STIV. The conspirators are re-assured that Kirk and his team know nothing. David is made the ships official science officer.
STV is more the fanatic religion angle. So far we now have 2 super beings head towards earth. May see this as something biblical like. IE Sabal searches for his god. Cartwright uses this to strengthen his hawk position even strong. Kirk suspects something so Cartwright sends him after Sabal, not spocks brother just a zealot. Sabal nearly kills Kirk but a Spock returns to help, now don't go crazy this is done a lot, Gandolf and Kenobi so Spock is the resonance of Spock and Vger's mind-meld. He says he is here to help usher in a golden age of peace ie Peace with the Klingons. His presence is kept a secret from most except for Kirk, Bones and maybe David. Savaak does not know. In the end they defeat Sabal but Cartwright is able to play on Savaak's fears that all is lost. She is trying to save her crew, Cartwright telling her that Spock was a "good soldier".
STVI with no more organa. Klingon's and Feds decided its time time to renew the treaty in person. Same as before Chancellor's killed. Savaak is on it, no valaries. Kirk is confronted with years of fear of change. Molts returns having been on Earth as a person seeking political asylum, a tie to Worf, might even directly tie the family together some how. The conspirators try to kill him. You get the sense that things could be better if we can let go of the past, both sides are gearing up for war, we get to see both sides fleets amassing. Spock now reaches out to Savaak and she confesses what she has done. A chance to be a traitor but at the same time redeemed. The story plays out much of the same, in that its a discover who the conspirators are. The signing is the end of the story srt of a huge cheer going out hand shakes and so on. Might figure out a way to push the story not needing a cloak firing BoP. That just seems dumb, that we never see it again. No way that is not used more. Now Chang and Kirk have some history, exchanges are more meaningful, "you are a hard man to kill Kirk." The story ends with an idea that we are trying to evolve beyond who we are. It explains the bubble gum TNG world as the Military part of Starfleet is exposed.
Some keys are death is not the end, but it is for real, no just bring him back. Facing the past and having hope for a brighter future. We can explore religious fanaticism in a none threatening way. Exposes the evils of a hawkish mindset. I think the slow idea that Cartwright and Chang are so fearful of change that they are willing to work together to start a war.
I might be really late to the party on this point, but I just realized that there is no absolute need to fix TUC by correcting its (mis)reading of Shakespeare with respect to what the undiscovered country represents. It can always represent the future in "the original Klingon!" 
I'd be willing to accept less that cutting edge animation if combined with a superior story/dialog. The better the story to "worse" the animation.
I'm not suggesting rock bottom you understand. Above Scooby-Doo, but below Akira.
Actually, Akira might be a good aim point, there's higher quality out there, but I don't require state-of-the-art.
