Five Year Mission

Discussion in 'Star Trek - The Original & Animated Series' started by Thanos007, Feb 15, 2019.

  1. Damian

    Damian Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Haha. But don't feel too bad. You'll never agree or disagree with someone 100% of the time. You'll always find that one thing that throws perfection out the window :beer:
     
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  2. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

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  3. JonnyQuest037

    JonnyQuest037 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I'm not sure what you're referring to here. Can you explain further?
     
  4. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

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    Several TOS episodes have no Stardate, so people get confused where to place them if watching all eps "in Stardate order".

    I remember racing to my Fotonovel of "Day of the Dove" when I realised that it was one of the eps without a canonical Stardate. But Mandala/Bantam had simply lifted a Stardate from a different Fotonovel and reused it.
     
  5. Mysterion

    Mysterion Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    If we can figure out how old Jamie is in Court Martial, that should help pinpoint Kirk's career timing a bit. She would have been named somewhere between meeting Ben at the Academy and Kirk's having pissed him off on Republic.
     
  6. JonnyQuest037

    JonnyQuest037 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yes, I know, but it sounded like @Henoch was referring to something besides the episodes without a Stardate. I'll quote him more fully:
    From the phrasing, it sounds like he's talking about two different sets of episodes there, not just the ones with no Stardates, so I was hoping he could explain more thoroughly.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2019
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  7. Henoch

    Henoch Captain Premium Member

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    Sorry for the delay, I was out for the evening. Firstly, the no stardate episodes by definition cause no stardate conflicts; you just put them in convenient time slots. Assumption is 1000 stardates = one year, or ~2.7 stardates per real day. All but one are in the first Season. The problem stardate episodes (in bold, now at six) are as follows, but there could be more based on episode dialog such with Miri needing at least 7 days:
    Stardate Days until next ep.
    1312.4 6.1 Where No Man Has Gone Before (references stardates 1277.1 through 1313.8, need more time to refit
    ship and change uniforms, etc.; push back 20 stardates still only gives 13.4 days, so may need more)
    1329.1 66.8 Mudd's Women

    1512.2 0.3 The Corbomite Maneuver (push back 20 stardates then 7.6 days until next ep.)
    1513.1 7.5 The Man Trap

    2712.4 0.4 What Are Little Girls Made Of? (push back 20 stardates then 7.7 days)
    2713.5 0.6 Miri (Stardates given are 2713.5 through 2717.3 plus 3 days after this, so, need at least 7 days)
    2715.1 37.4 Dagger of the Mind (push forward 20 stardates then Miri gets 7.9 days)

    2817.6 1.4 The Conscience of the King (push back 20 stardates then 8.7 days)
    2821.5 45.1 The Galileo Seven

    5027.3 0.8 The Enterprise Incident (push forward 20 stardates then 8.1 days, can't go back due to TPS 2 months)
    5029.5 33.6 And the Children Shall Lead (also push forward same 20 stardates)

    I only adjusted by base 20 stardates, but a little more here or there probably will work better. I'm not going to spending a lot of analysis time on this until a hear a good galactic timezone theory. But I do love spreadsheets...
     
  8. MAGolding

    MAGolding Captain Captain

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    Short Answer: I always assumed Jamie was fourteen but can't find any statement to that effect.

    Long Answer: Numerous calculations fail to narrow down Jamie's possible age in "Court Martial" very narrowly.


    In "Court Martial":

    So Jamie was named, and thus presumably born, after Kirk became a midshipman at Starfleet Academy.

    In "Shore Leave" Kirk meets Ruth and Finnegan who Kirk knew when he was at Starfleet Academy:

    This implies that Kirk was a plebe (first year cadet) at Starfleet Academy 15 years before "Shore Leave". It also implies that Kirk met Ben Finney and became his friend no more than 15 years before "Shore Leave" and Finney named his daughter Jamie no more than 15 years before "Shore Leave". So it seems very probable that Jamie Finney was no more than 15 years old in "Shore Leave" and possibly years younger.

    But the friendship between Kirk and Ben Finney ended when Kirk was an ensign on the Republic.

    "
    Court Martial":

    And:

    So Kirk had the rank of ensign when he reported Finney, ending their friendship. According to my rough calculations, Kirk would normally have been graduated from the Academy and commissioned an ensign about 3.75 years after Kirk entered the Academy.

    So if Kirk entered the Academy about 15.00 to 15.99 years before "Shore Leave" he would have graduated and become commissioned an ensign - if after the normal period - about 3.75 years later and thus about 11.25 to 12.24 years before "Shore Leave". Since all TOS episodes happen during a five year mission which should be less than 5.99 years long, no TOS episode should happen more than 21.98 years after Kirk entered the Academy.

    The latest possible time for Ben Finney to name Jamie after Kirk was the time when Kirk reported Finney and ended there friendship, and the latest possible time for Ensign Kirk to report Finney was the day when Ensign Kirk was promoted to lieutenant.

    According to "A Private Little War":

    and:

    So Kirk was a lieutenant making his first planetary survey "thirteen years" before "A Private Little War", which might be 13.00 to 13.99 years, or maybe 12.50 to 13.50 years, or maybe 12.0 to 14.99 years, depending on how Kirk thinks about and reports time intervals.

    So Kirk was already a lieutenant making a planetary survey 12.00 to 14.99 years before "A Private Little War", and he was promoted from ensign to lieutenant an unknown period of time before making that planetary survey, and Jamie Finney must have been born and named after Kirk an unknown period of time before Kirk was promoted from ensign to lieutenant.

    Therefore Jamie Finney must have been at least 12.00 years, and possibly almost 20 years, old in "A Private Little War".

    If James Kirk graduated from the Academy and was commissioned an ensign about 11.25 to 12.24 years before "Shore Leave", and if it took Kirk about 0.01 to 4.0 years to be promoted to lieutenant, he was promoted to lieutenant about 7.25 to 12.23 years before "Shore Leave", and that was the very latest that Jame Finney could have been named after James T. Kirk. Therefore Jamie Finney was about 7.25 to 15.99 years old in "Shore Leave" and at least 12.00 years old in "A Private Little War", which thus must have been 0.01 to at least 4.75 years after "Shore Leave".

    If Kirk was promoted from ensign to lieutenant about 7.25 to 12.23 years before "Shore Leave", and if Kirk was a lieutenant 0.01 to 4.00 years before making the planetary survey, Kirk made the planetary survey about 3.25 to 12.22 years before "Shore Leave". If lieutenant Kirk made the planetary survey about 12.00 to 14.99 years before "A Private Little War", "A Private Little War" should be about 0.01 to 11.74 years after "Shore Leave". Therefore Jamie Finney should be aged about 7.26 to 27.73 years old in "A Private Little War".

    But of course two different episodes in the five year mission should be no more than 5.99 years apart at the very most. So if "A Private little War" is after "Shore Leave", Jamie can be no more than 13.24 to 18.22 years old in "A Private little War", and possibly years younger than that. And if Jamie must be 12.00 to 18.22 years old in "A Private little War", she can be no younger than 6.01 to 12.23 in "Shore Leave".

    If Kirk graduated from Starfleet Academy and was commissioned an ensign after about 3.75 years, and was an ensign for at least 0.01 years before being commissioned a lieutenant, and was a lieutenant for at least 0.01 years before making his planetary survey, and if the planetary survey was at least 12.00 years before "A Private Little War", "A Private Little War" must have been at least 15.77 years after Kirk Entered Starfleet academy.

    Since "Shore Leave" should be 15.00 to 15.99 years after Kirk Entered Starfleet academy, "A Private Little War", when Jamie should be 12.00 to 18.22, should be sometime between 0.22 years before "Shore Leave" to 5.99 years after "Shore Leave:, thus making Jamie aged 6.01 to to 18.44 in "Shore Leave. Since Jamie Finney should be about 7.25 to 15.99 years old in "Shore Leave", she should be 7.03 to 21.98 in "A Private Little War".

    Most Star Trek fans would probably imagine that "Court Martial" happens within one year of "Shore Leave", and thus when Jamie Finney is aged about 6.25 to 16.99 years old. And in "Court Martial" she looks closer to the older end of that age range than the younger end.

    I assumed that Jamie was fourteen in "Court Martial" but I have not found any statement of her age to back that up.
     
  9. johnnybear

    johnnybear Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I have found a page that puts Day of The Dove a position just before Is There in Truth in Stardate ordering! :techman:
    JB
     
  10. Henoch

    Henoch Captain Premium Member

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    That would put it between FTWIHAIHTTS and ITITNB:
    Stardate // DBE* // No. // Ep.
    5476.3 // 56.4 // 65 // 3x08 For the World Is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky
    ????.? // ?.? // 66 // 3x07 Day of the Dove
    5630.7 // 22.8 // 62 // 3x05 Is There In Truth No Beauty?
    5693.2 // 6.3 // 64 // 3x09 The Tholian Web
    *DBE=Days Between Episodes

    Completely doable since we have 56.4 days between those two episodes. DOTD did not take very much time (~one day), perhaps we need at most the "standard 7 days between episodes" to have the episode and give time to get to the next mission, so any stardate between 5500 and 5610 works. All four episodes could be in the same space region near Klingon/Tholian/Medusan space boarders high up (or down) near the galaxy barrier. Why not.

    I would prefer a later date of 5610 since it would give more time to install the new antimatter control area in the engine room that we may be seeing in DOTD and later in TWS. TWS is another no stardate, so stuck in where I could find a decent slot. The stardate timeline after DOTD thru TWS is kind of tight, not giving a decent time window for the engine room changes. Revised timeline:
    Stardate // DBE* // No. // Ep.
    5476.3 // 8.7 // 65 // 3x08 For the World Is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky
    5500.0 // 40.2 // n/a // n/a Engine Room Upgrade
    5610.0 // 7.5 // 66 // 3x07 Day of the Dove

    5630.7 // 22.8 // 62 // 3x05 Is There In Truth No Beauty?
    5693.2 // 6.3 // 64 // 3x09 The Tholian Web
    5710.5 // 2.8 // 68 // 3x11 Wink of an Eye
    5718.3 // 2.6 // 71 // 3x14 Whom Gods Destroy
    5725.3 // 1.8 // 73 // 3x18 The Lights of Zetar
    5730.2 // 9.8 // 70 // 3x15 Let That Be Your Last Battlefield
    5757.0 // 9.9 // 69 // 3x17 That Which Survives
    5784.2 // 12.5 // 67 // 3x10 Plato's Stepchildren
     
  11. johnnybear

    johnnybear Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I have Day of The Dove at 5630.3 and Is There In Truth no Beauty at 5630.7! so is that a four day gap between the episodes? :klingon:
    The only problem with this is Scotty's hairstyle! That or he gells his hair up every few weeks and adds a little Grecian 2000 or is that 3000 in the twenty third century? :lol:
    JB
     
  12. Henoch

    Henoch Captain Premium Member

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    JB, I think you missed the stardate conversion discussions. You have 0.1 equal to 1 earth day. If so, then stardates 1000 thru 6000 is 50,000 days (137 years). I feel old.
     
  13. johnnybear

    johnnybear Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Gulp! I don't think I've ever fully understood them apart from the first number representing the year of the mission to discover strange new worlds! :weep:
    JB
     
  14. Henoch

    Henoch Captain Premium Member

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    Restarting stardate gyrations. Several problems and I'm not even out of season one, yet (reading every transcript of every episode is boring but this info is well hidden).
    Episodes where stardates and approximate time is provided:
    • Base Theory: 1000 stardates = 1 earth year or 2.74 stardates = 24 hours. or 1 stardate = 8.77 hours.
    • TCM: 1.6 stardates=~18 hours or 1 stardate = ~11.25 hours.
    • Miri: 3.7 stardates=~91 hours or 1 stardate = ~24.59 hours.
    • TGS: 1.5 stardates=24 hours or 1 stardate = 16 hours.
    Yikes. A stardate must be longer or shorter depending where in the galactic timezone you are, or maybe it's seasonal. :confused:
    Some stardates must be when the log was recorded (hours to days later) and not during the actual event or not using the actual time of the event. I feel that I need to see it to the end.
     
  15. JonnyQuest037

    JonnyQuest037 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It's honestly beyond me why some folks expend so much energy trying to get Stardates to make sense. Even Roddenberry admitted that they were basically BS. A vague amount of sense is the most you can ever hope for.
     
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  16. johnnybear

    johnnybear Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Has anyone ever looked up the actress who played Jaime and then discovered her age?
    JB
     
  17. Henoch

    Henoch Captain Premium Member

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    According to Memory Alpha: Alice Rawlings is the actress who played Jame Finney in the Star Trek: The Original Series episode "Court Martial".. She filmed her scenes (including a deleted scene in main engineering) on Monday 3 October 1966, Wednesday 5 October 1966, Friday 7 October 1966 and Monday 10 October 1966 at Desilu Stage 9 and Stage 10.
    I can't find a reliable birthdate. She was probably in her mid-twenties during filming. I actually remember her in the movie "Where Angels Go, Trouble Follows".
     
  18. johnnybear

    johnnybear Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    No, no age listed anywhere and she seems to have given up showbusiness in 1968 anyways! :wtf:
    JB
     
  19. mb22

    mb22 Captain Captain

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    She looks younger to me. Perhaps around 18?
     
  20. johnnybear

    johnnybear Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    She was probably eighteen but I'd say her character was fifteen or sixteen perhaps?
    JB