I knew I'd heard "Bajora" somewhere, so it felt strange to read but didn't really blip as being wrong to say..
I looked it up, and found this at Memory Alpha:
First-Timer's Impressions of Deep Space Nine
- Thread starter Jimmy Bob
- Start date
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I knew I'd heard "Bajora" somewhere, so it felt strange to read but didn't really blip as being wrong to say..
I looked it up, and found this at Memory Alpha:
Yeah. It was previously established in the DS9 relaunch novella Horn and Ivory, which sheds a bit of light on that period of Bajor's ancient history. In fact one may say that there's a pretty strong parallel implied between the ancient Bajora and the Dominion.
Rumpelstiltskin will do that, I suppose.
No, I'm still here. I just... didn't know what to say.
If Wishes Were Horses
This episode was so bad, that I got up, went to a gun store, bought a gun, shot my brains out, slipped on them and then lied on the floor and listened to a cheerful supermarket tune while sadly reflecting on my life. And then I cried.
This episode was so bad, that I spent the next day talking with my half-comatose drooling grandmother and had the time of my life.
Eh, I've got nothing. And the last one sounds kinda mean.
Truth is, there were a lot of good character moments in this episode. I found the pre-credits part to be really promising.
And Terry Farrel was just a delight in this episode. And I liked how Sisko scratched his head when all those imagined creatures appeared for the first time together in the same room.
But, there have been a lot of good character moments in otherwise meh episodes throughout this season. And currently the show isn't exactly inspiring me to watch it. Because there have been so many meh's following each other. But I will keep on. Just need to gather myself.
Of course it's going to be some malicious spacial anomaly, and not a great character study into DS9's characters wishes and childhood, and in the process connecting all of us with our inner child's and encouraging us to keep believing in our dreams.
Films like It's A Wonderful Life or Bishop's Wife just don't work if their presented as scientific mysteries and spacial anomalies.
Or perhaps this episode just presented itself as a wannabe "inspirational childhood" tale, just to tell us that we need to stop believing in dreams, and rely solely on facts, otherwise our imaginations will kill us. In which case, this episode is just plain evil.
I think the writers were just confused on what exactly they wanted to give to the viewer.
If Wishes Were Horses
This episode was so bad, that I got up, went to a gun store, bought a gun, shot my brains out, slipped on them and then lied on the floor and listened to a cheerful supermarket tune while sadly reflecting on my life. And then I cried.
This episode was so bad, that I spent the next day talking with my half-comatose drooling grandmother and had the time of my life.
Eh, I've got nothing. And the last one sounds kinda mean.
Truth is, there were a lot of good character moments in this episode. I found the pre-credits part to be really promising.
And Terry Farrel was just a delight in this episode. And I liked how Sisko scratched his head when all those imagined creatures appeared for the first time together in the same room.
But, there have been a lot of good character moments in otherwise meh episodes throughout this season. And currently the show isn't exactly inspiring me to watch it. Because there have been so many meh's following each other. But I will keep on. Just need to gather myself.
Of course it's going to be some malicious spacial anomaly, and not a great character study into DS9's characters wishes and childhood, and in the process connecting all of us with our inner child's and encouraging us to keep believing in our dreams.
Films like It's A Wonderful Life or Bishop's Wife just don't work if their presented as scientific mysteries and spacial anomalies.
Or perhaps this episode just presented itself as a wannabe "inspirational childhood" tale, just to tell us that we need to stop believing in dreams, and rely solely on facts, otherwise our imaginations will kill us. In which case, this episode is just plain evil.
I think the writers were just confused on what exactly they wanted to give to the viewer.
This was actually the first episode where I noticed technobabble. I had grown up on TNG so I never noticed the babble until one day I saw a repeat of this episode and I realised that it was all gibberish.
It's a bad episode for the most part, one of my least favourite in the whole show, but it does introduce something of great thematic significance later on: Sisko's baseball. When I rewatched the show and realised that THE baseball came from this episode I was shocked at how such a memorable part of the show came from such a forgettable episode. Everything else from this episode is unimportant, just keep your eyes on that baseball.
(It's Odo's brother.
)
In my opinion, the worst is now behind you, and while greatness is still a bit away, there isn't an episode quite this bad again until season 3. Although the Sisko/elf romance plot comes close.
It's a bad episode for the most part, one of my least favourite in the whole show, but it does introduce something of great thematic significance later on: Sisko's baseball. When I rewatched the show and realised that THE baseball came from this episode I was shocked at how such a memorable part of the show came from such a forgettable episode. Everything else from this episode is unimportant, just keep your eyes on that baseball.
(It's Odo's brother.
)In my opinion, the worst is now behind you, and while greatness is still a bit away, there isn't an episode quite this bad again until season 3. Although the Sisko/elf romance plot comes close.
I'd actually say there's even worse episodes further along. However, whereas there seemed to be a couple runs of them in S1, they become much less frequent in the later seasons. Like oddball islands of shit in a sea of general wickedness.
I agree, there's some awful episodes in the future which will surpass anything season 1 crapped out, but the show is so much better that it is easier to wade through them. My personal least favourite is in season 5, and it shouldn't be too hard to figure out what episode that is because there's so few popularly reviled episodes from that season.
If Wishes Were Horses, not great, and the fact that they were just space aliens worsens it, I would have liked to have seen more of Julian + both Jadzias, which could have been an episode by itself, but as the others have said, there isn't anything in Season 2 this bad, and after that you're home and dry except for about once a season, when they crack out their yearly bad episode.
There may be several average episodes around the middle of that, but you're at least past any bad episodes that Season 1 has.
There may be several average episodes around the middle of that, but you're at least past any bad episodes that Season 1 has.
I'd actually say there's even worse episodes further along. However, whereas there seemed to be a couple runs of them in S1, they become much less frequent in the later seasons. Like oddball islands of shit in a sea of general wickedness.
The last four episodes are easily the best stretch of Season 1, particularly the last two. However, I actually think the worst of Season 2 is at least as bad as the worst of Season 1. Overall it's a much better year, but there are some incredibly boring episodes. There's a run of five episodes in there that almost made me lose faith in the series. Thankfully it's bookended by two of DS9's best, so I managed to persevere!
Jimmy Bob, you're reaching the point where the show finally starts to deliver the goods, albeit fitfully in the early stages, so keep going!
Mid season 2 isn't great, but I still don't think it ever reached season 1 levels. I think I know the five episodes you're talking about, and from what I can remember I mostly enjoyed at least two of those, I thought that two of them were watchable because of the O'Brien/Bashir material in them, and one of them... well, that's my least favourite episode of the season. But what season 2 had that season 1 didn't was a very strong line-up of seven or eight good to great episodes leading up to the finale, at least five of which were vital to future story-arcs. DS9 showed it had great potential before that point, but that's when they showed us that they could maintain it.
Previously on First-Timer:
Jimmy Bob was a typical mom's basement guy, youtubing and tvtroping his days into extinction, who didn't even qualify as a geek because he never had seen any of the Trek shows. After watching almost all of them, except for one, his attempt to belong somewhere (finally!) backfired when he discovered that he's suffering from a bit of Trek exhaustion. Failing to get into DS9, he forced himself into self-exile, denouncing any attempt to belong, and remain lonely forever. But fate had other plans for him. Tonight, Jimmy Bob is going to face his demons, in an epic "finish this season in one sitting" all-nighter!
First-Timer All-Nighter Special Event!
The Forsaken
I like Lwaxana Troi. I just enjoy watching her. She reminds me of my biology teacher in high school. That same kind of unordinary personality. Just a delight.
So imagine my disappointment when it turned out that this episode shares the same mistake with Q-Less. What's the point of having an iconic character like that and then focus mostly on some random techno-plot. Honestly, I even forgot why they didn't have any power anymore.
I was like "didn't O'Brien just say that the computer is working better, so why they're having problems". So that shows how disinterested I was.
And then I thought that few moments were bit out of character. Or just awkwardly written. That scene between Odo and Sisko... there was just something awkward about that.
But.
That final scene on the elevator between Odo and Lwaxana, that was just beautiful stuff. Such a very important and wonderful scene for both characters. And powerful.
And that's how I would like to remember this episode. By that scene alone. Made me
. Touching stuff.
"I can't hold my shape any longer."
"Let it go. I'll take care of you."
And that music.
Wait a sec? Music? Wow. DS9 has actual music.
Wow.
Cool.
Anyway. Loved it when I wasn't bored by it.
Bring it on, Dramatis Personae!
P.S I liked it when Sisko sighed and then forced a smile when those ambassadors came on the bridge. There's something rough and honest in his body language.
Jimmy Bob was a typical mom's basement guy, youtubing and tvtroping his days into extinction, who didn't even qualify as a geek because he never had seen any of the Trek shows. After watching almost all of them, except for one, his attempt to belong somewhere (finally!) backfired when he discovered that he's suffering from a bit of Trek exhaustion. Failing to get into DS9, he forced himself into self-exile, denouncing any attempt to belong, and remain lonely forever. But fate had other plans for him. Tonight, Jimmy Bob is going to face his demons, in an epic "finish this season in one sitting" all-nighter!
First-Timer All-Nighter Special Event!
The Forsaken
I like Lwaxana Troi. I just enjoy watching her. She reminds me of my biology teacher in high school. That same kind of unordinary personality. Just a delight.
So imagine my disappointment when it turned out that this episode shares the same mistake with Q-Less. What's the point of having an iconic character like that and then focus mostly on some random techno-plot. Honestly, I even forgot why they didn't have any power anymore.
I was like "didn't O'Brien just say that the computer is working better, so why they're having problems". So that shows how disinterested I was.
And then I thought that few moments were bit out of character. Or just awkwardly written. That scene between Odo and Sisko... there was just something awkward about that.
But.
That final scene on the elevator between Odo and Lwaxana, that was just beautiful stuff. Such a very important and wonderful scene for both characters. And powerful.
And that's how I would like to remember this episode. By that scene alone. Made me
. Touching stuff."I can't hold my shape any longer."
"Let it go. I'll take care of you."
And that music.
Wait a sec? Music? Wow. DS9 has actual music.
Wow.Cool.
Anyway. Loved it when I wasn't bored by it.
Bring it on, Dramatis Personae!
P.S I liked it when Sisko sighed and then forced a smile when those ambassadors came on the bridge. There's something rough and honest in his body language.
Dramatis Personae
This was a very peculiar episode. It was a complete mindfuck. I actually started wondering if I had smoked something and then forgotten about it.
Dax: "Put the shoe in the right foot first, but put the left foot first into the bathtub."
Am I high?
And why is Kira suddenly male?
Because they don't tell us that anything is wrong. It just happens so... it's like a normal day, and then Bashir talks and you get this feeling that you're high because there was something surreal about Bashir...
Crazy. I just love a good mindfuck every now and then. Don't you?
It's so brilliant that they only start to do Odo Suspects Something Wrong only when half of the episode is over. It's not like this episode hasn't been done before (or after in Trek). But, in other cases, we usually get "Odo Suspects Something Wrong" from the beginning and it doesn't happen so cleverly...
Odo just collapses and no one cares... well Quark cared, which was a nice scene, but you know what I mean... do you?
The focus, the direction, the execution was just brilliant. And of course, later we get the typical and usual explanation, but the story still remains fascinating thanks to those interesting O'Brien's and Sisko's that then take the lead over.
What an interesting and clever episode.
This was a very peculiar episode. It was a complete mindfuck. I actually started wondering if I had smoked something and then forgotten about it.
Dax: "Put the shoe in the right foot first, but put the left foot first into the bathtub."
Am I high?
And why is Kira suddenly male?Because they don't tell us that anything is wrong. It just happens so... it's like a normal day, and then Bashir talks and you get this feeling that you're high because there was something surreal about Bashir...
Crazy. I just love a good mindfuck every now and then. Don't you?
It's so brilliant that they only start to do Odo Suspects Something Wrong only when half of the episode is over. It's not like this episode hasn't been done before (or after in Trek). But, in other cases, we usually get "Odo Suspects Something Wrong" from the beginning and it doesn't happen so cleverly...
Odo just collapses and no one cares... well Quark cared, which was a nice scene, but you know what I mean... do you?
The focus, the direction, the execution was just brilliant. And of course, later we get the typical and usual explanation, but the story still remains fascinating thanks to those interesting O'Brien's and Sisko's that then take the lead over.
What an interesting and clever episode.
Up next is my favorite episode of the whole series.
Duet
This. Was. Good.
I don't know what to say. Nothing seems to be able to really convey all those complex emotions and insights that run through me while watching this episode.
Coming from a country that still can't get over World War II, this is of course very familiar. Including the stories of rapes before families like Kira quoted. And those trials over war criminals is a very familiar subject. Just weird, these old guys... that they're still alive, and that they've just lived like ordinary men... no glory, no shame... just spent last 50 years selling pickles...
In the end, I guess, these people are just tools. Otherwise small quiet people with quiet lives that just spent 2 or 3 percent of their lives participating in a collective evil.
There was a recent trial over one 80-year old war criminal, but he died during it. And our "Cardassia" of course declared him a war hero and said it was "regrettable" that respected soviet soldiers were treated like that.
So, DS9 somehow is just so relevant to my post-soviet world.
Of course, usually I'm not this nationalistic and I don't really think of Russia as our Cardassia... my subconsciousness just automatically contextualized it in this way and I'm just trying to say something about the episode.
Though, what makes eastern european case even more complex is that, when we now hunt for soviet war criminals, under the soviet rule (especially in 1950's-1960's) we hunted for nazi war criminals. So we've been through this twice.
Basically, the difference between murder and war (or genocide) is that one is honest. You knife someone, someone is dead and knife is bloody.
But when politics are involved, then everyone just recruits an army of historians, writers and film-makers to create these grand emotional nationalistic narratives and it's all covered up in half-truths and "the glory of the people", and then the people get emotionally attached to those narratives and eventually, when everyone who fought in those wars are already dead, people start fighting each other over "unorthodox" understandings of those events.
But enough about that. I thought it was very noble of Marritza to take up the role of Gul Darhe'el, so Bajorans could get their "justice" and Cardassia would have to admit it's crimes.
And while I understand Kira's decision, because this was the first time she really saw the "fellow human" in a cardassian, and crossing this "detachment" of course affected her deeply. A monster became a crying man.
But no good deed goes unpunished, as we clearly saw. If I'd been Kira, I would have thanked Marritza and then continued the charade.
This episode... I just don't have the words.
Now this is the kind of stuff I wanted to see after Emissary. And now I would like to understand Gul Darhe'el. What went on in his head? Will they have more of this? Soon?
This. Was. Good.
I don't know what to say. Nothing seems to be able to really convey all those complex emotions and insights that run through me while watching this episode.
Coming from a country that still can't get over World War II, this is of course very familiar. Including the stories of rapes before families like Kira quoted. And those trials over war criminals is a very familiar subject. Just weird, these old guys... that they're still alive, and that they've just lived like ordinary men... no glory, no shame... just spent last 50 years selling pickles...
In the end, I guess, these people are just tools. Otherwise small quiet people with quiet lives that just spent 2 or 3 percent of their lives participating in a collective evil.
There was a recent trial over one 80-year old war criminal, but he died during it. And our "Cardassia" of course declared him a war hero and said it was "regrettable" that respected soviet soldiers were treated like that.
So, DS9 somehow is just so relevant to my post-soviet world.
Of course, usually I'm not this nationalistic and I don't really think of Russia as our Cardassia... my subconsciousness just automatically contextualized it in this way and I'm just trying to say something about the episode.
Though, what makes eastern european case even more complex is that, when we now hunt for soviet war criminals, under the soviet rule (especially in 1950's-1960's) we hunted for nazi war criminals. So we've been through this twice.
Basically, the difference between murder and war (or genocide) is that one is honest. You knife someone, someone is dead and knife is bloody.
But when politics are involved, then everyone just recruits an army of historians, writers and film-makers to create these grand emotional nationalistic narratives and it's all covered up in half-truths and "the glory of the people", and then the people get emotionally attached to those narratives and eventually, when everyone who fought in those wars are already dead, people start fighting each other over "unorthodox" understandings of those events.
But enough about that. I thought it was very noble of Marritza to take up the role of Gul Darhe'el, so Bajorans could get their "justice" and Cardassia would have to admit it's crimes.
And while I understand Kira's decision, because this was the first time she really saw the "fellow human" in a cardassian, and crossing this "detachment" of course affected her deeply. A monster became a crying man.
But no good deed goes unpunished, as we clearly saw. If I'd been Kira, I would have thanked Marritza and then continued the charade.
This episode... I just don't have the words.
Now this is the kind of stuff I wanted to see after Emissary. And now I would like to understand Gul Darhe'el. What went on in his head? Will they have more of this? Soon?
Ditto that - I especially liked Sisko's little speech about Kira's "ingratitude" and how his name will "blaze across the stars long after your petty treacheries have been forgotten."
One thing I was always wondering about was whether or not Quark had been faking an injury when visiting Odo's office.
You won't get to see or hear about Gul Darhe'el anymore, but there are certainly going to be several important recurring Cardassian characters, including some who had a big role in the Occupation of Bajor, and Cardassian society is also explored a lot in the show. There's also an upcoming episode in season 2 that features flashbacks to the station at the time of the Occupation (and it's not the last such episode).
Oh... and I love Duet. It's the episode that got me hooked on the show, and still one of my favorites, if not the favorite.
When us fans say that you have to stick with DS9 through the first season what we mean is that you have to stick with DS9 until Duet. Not only is it a great episode which compels you to watch more, it also signals the point when the show generally improved and realised what it should be doing. That episode seemed to be a revelation for the writers as to the sort of gold-mine they were sitting on when it comes to the Bajoran/Cardassian relationship, and in early season 2 there are a number of episodes which go back and explore it, the best of which includes flashbacks to the occupation.
Good gods!
All I remember about The Forsaken is the stuff with Odo and Lwaxana, which may be why I like the episode so much. This was actually a really moving scene and arguably one of DS9's most memorable.
Dramatis Personae is a TNG episode, I guess, but it's really fun to watch. Especially Sisko building his clock!
Duet is obviously the best episode since the pilot (actually it's probably better, since I can remember the plot!). I don't like it quite as much as a lot of people do, but it takes great advantage of the show's premise and the last few scenes are superb.
Dramatis Personae is a TNG episode, I guess, but it's really fun to watch. Especially Sisko building his clock!
Duet is obviously the best episode since the pilot (actually it's probably better, since I can remember the plot!). I don't like it quite as much as a lot of people do, but it takes great advantage of the show's premise and the last few scenes are superb.
In The Hands Of The Prophets
Oh geez, another one of those evolutionist vs creationist allegories.
*DS9 rolls against obvious formualic allegory*
Oh, O'Brien is talking about some ensign who has appeared before and has had no lines but now gets all this exposition. Yeah, she's evil.
*DS9 rolls against formualic build-up*
You know, I've actually met people like Winn Adami. And that's the problem with civilization. Civilization, any kind of organized collective with culture, imprints young minds with symbols that lay dormant there and later those young minds, thanks to those symbols indentify themselves as being part of some or other civilization.
And social control then manipulates and awakens those subconcsious symbols according to need to make people follow the line. Usually, social control is fortunately relatively neutral. There will always be victims, but usually not that evil.
But when people like Winn Adami start to manipulate those subconscious symbols, they do it to raise a collective fear and mass psychosis, equaling the cultural "good" with themselves and "evil" with their political opponents.
It's like eastern europe. Every self-respecting eastern european citizen votes only for laissez-faire neo-liberal right-wing parties, because social democracy sounds like communism and therefore is russian and evil. Vote for public healthcare and you're a traitor to your people. Private is good because it's anti-communist. So privatize everything. Fuck the common man, because "common" sounds awfully lot like common-ist.
And that's the problem with civilization. Now if we were lone feral kids raised by the forest, we wouldn't have this problem. We would just kill and rape each other more honestly, without cultural symbols and mass delusions.
*Thread rolls against Jimmy Bob's soapbox*
I find it interesting that a thread can become a self-aware entity with it's own will.
And Winn Adami is an obvius hypocrite too. We just saw some episodes ago, how life was in a remote village of Bajora, and that was pretty heretic too with their self-made fear creature and the village prophet who gets to have free girls.... but no political spotlight to be gained from a fight against that.
Thread: "What about the rolls?"
The rolls? What... oh, the rolls. Yeah. So did DS9 have succesful rolls? More or less.
It turned out to be a rather entertaining episode, if a bit more formulaic than Duet. The "NOOOOOO!!!!" was just too much.
Oh geez, another one of those evolutionist vs creationist allegories.
*DS9 rolls against obvious formualic allegory*
Oh, O'Brien is talking about some ensign who has appeared before and has had no lines but now gets all this exposition. Yeah, she's evil.
*DS9 rolls against formualic build-up*
You know, I've actually met people like Winn Adami. And that's the problem with civilization. Civilization, any kind of organized collective with culture, imprints young minds with symbols that lay dormant there and later those young minds, thanks to those symbols indentify themselves as being part of some or other civilization.
And social control then manipulates and awakens those subconcsious symbols according to need to make people follow the line. Usually, social control is fortunately relatively neutral. There will always be victims, but usually not that evil.
But when people like Winn Adami start to manipulate those subconscious symbols, they do it to raise a collective fear and mass psychosis, equaling the cultural "good" with themselves and "evil" with their political opponents.
It's like eastern europe. Every self-respecting eastern european citizen votes only for laissez-faire neo-liberal right-wing parties, because social democracy sounds like communism and therefore is russian and evil. Vote for public healthcare and you're a traitor to your people. Private is good because it's anti-communist. So privatize everything. Fuck the common man, because "common" sounds awfully lot like common-ist.
And that's the problem with civilization. Now if we were lone feral kids raised by the forest, we wouldn't have this problem. We would just kill and rape each other more honestly, without cultural symbols and mass delusions.
*Thread rolls against Jimmy Bob's soapbox*
I find it interesting that a thread can become a self-aware entity with it's own will.
And Winn Adami is an obvius hypocrite too. We just saw some episodes ago, how life was in a remote village of Bajora, and that was pretty heretic too with their self-made fear creature and the village prophet who gets to have free girls.... but no political spotlight to be gained from a fight against that.
Thread: "What about the rolls?"
The rolls? What... oh, the rolls. Yeah. So did DS9 have succesful rolls? More or less.
It turned out to be a rather entertaining episode, if a bit more formulaic than Duet. The "NOOOOOO!!!!" was just too much.
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