First Impressions

[tomswift2002]

The Discovery computer receives the transmission data and then does the best it can to project it into the area/room where it's being observed.
To approximate the sending images actions, it uses whatever objects are handy at the receiving end.
Thus Sarek leans against the desk in the room, even though he may have actually been leaning against a wall or even sitting in a chair.
It has got to be pretty sophisticated software by that time, so I don't understand why folks find this so complicated.

And yet by the time of DS9 and Voyager, Starfleet is only able to have holo-communications if you are standing in one particular area, and you were near a particular planet/station or subspace relay. (And in the DS9 episode “For The Uniform”, both Sisko and the Excelsior-class captain seem “impressed” with the technology, very much like it’s a brand new technology that was just introduced, or Starfleet had just found a way to make it practical, kind of like the cell phone in the real world, where prior to 2004 only a few people had them because they were bulky and or they needed to be installed in cars for power, unless you were close to a tower, the signal strength was not as good as a landline, and if they needed to make call on the go a lot of people would but since 2004 and improvements in signal strength technology and battery technology, has led to more and more people adopting the cell phone and ditching or just keeping a landline at home for emergency).

 

[DaveyNY]

You did notice that the DS-9 Holograms looked like the person you were talking to was actually standing there, right?

Unlike the Discovery ones, where it was just a flickering ghost of an image.

 

[tomswift2002]

You did notice that the DS-9 Holograms looked like the person you were talking to was actually standing there, right?

Unlike the Discovery ones, where it was just a flickering ghost of an image.

According the Captain of the Melanche, it looked like Sisko was sitting on the Melanche bridge.

Of course there’s the other issue of how, prior to Voyager Season 4, holograms of any type were restricted to the holodeck or a specific room, like sickbay, whereas on Discovery the holograms appear in any room (although in TNG & Star Trek III & VI there were a couple of table top holograms, but in those cases the table could’ve been made with the holoemmitters built in with their own power supply).

 

[Damian]

According the Captain of the Melanche, it looked like Sisko was sitting on the Melanche bridge.

Of course there’s the other issue of how, prior to Voyager Season 4, holograms of any type were restricted to the holodeck or a specific room, like sickbay, whereas on Discovery the holograms appear in any room (although in TNG & Star Trek III & VI there were a couple of table top holograms, but in those cases the table could’ve been made with the holoemmitters built in with their own power supply).

That was my understanding as well. And those holograms weren't interactive. And supposedly the viewscreens were 3 dimensional pictures, though obviously we couldn't see that on a 2-D tv. The closest I ever saw to that effect was the very beginning of TSFS. When Kirk is doing his captain's log and is walking by the viewscreen, if you watch closely you can see some of the stars in the screen move just a bit in a 3-d sort of way (it's hard to explain, but it's an effect that almost gives the viewscreen depth).

But Discovery plays very fast and loose with the technology they have, when you consider what the Enterprise had in the original series (which is supposed to be a more advanced ship). The forcefields are much more like those of TNG era. The Enterprise had forcefields for the brig, but not throughout the ship, otherwise why would they ever need to use emergency bulkheads. Intraship beaming is another that I can't reconcile because Scotty was very explicit in the original series that was very dangerous to do, yet on Discovery it seems routine.

 

[tomswift2002]

That was my understanding as well. And those holograms weren't interactive. And supposedly the viewscreens were 3 dimensional pictures, though obviously we couldn't see that on a 2-D tv. The closest I ever saw to that effect was the very beginning of TSFS. When Kirk is doing his captain's log and is walking by the viewscreen, if you watch closely you can see some of the stars in the screen move just a bit in a 3-d sort of way (it's hard to explain, but it's an effect that almost gives the viewscreen depth).

But Discovery plays very fast and loose with the technology they have, when you consider what the Enterprise had in the original series (which is supposed to be a more advanced ship). The forcefields are much more like those of TNG era. The Enterprise had forcefields for the brig, but not throughout the ship, otherwise why would they ever need to use emergency bulkheads. Intraship beaming is another that I can't reconcile because Scotty was very explicit in the original series that was very dangerous to do, yet on Discovery it seems routine.

In 3 I was thinking of the bar scene where those people are playing the bi-plane game.

 

[Tuskin38]

The Enterprise had a primitive holodeck in TAS.

if you watch closely you can see some of the stars in the screen move just a bit in a 3-d sort of way (it's hard to explain, but it's an effect that almost gives the viewscreen depth).

I believe the term is parallax.

 

[Damian]

In 3 I was thinking of the bar scene where those people are playing the bi-plane game.

Yeah. I think the difference in holograms between the original series/movies and TNG was by TNG they were solid holograms, and they had interactive holograms.

The Enterprise had a primitive holodeck in TAS.


I believe the term is parallax.

I think that goes for the rec room in the animated series too. I don't think it could provide say an interactive environment like TNG. That was something else early on Discovery I noticed that seemed more advanced then it should have.

But as for the parallax effect, that was one of the only times I saw something that appeared 3d in a viewscreen, which apparently they had.

 

[Tuskin38]

don't think it could provide say an interactive environment like TNG.

Well they were able to fall into a hole in the episode it showed up in.

So it at least had some sort of simple collision/environment interaction, which the Discovery one also showed.

The Discovery holodeck wasn't very sophisticated, the Klingons barely showed any intelligence they just ran at the weapons fire, and they just vanished instead of falling over.

The only environment we saw in Discovery was a ship corridor and some rooms, nothing very complicated, no running water, no wind, nothing physics intensive.

Though the one in TAS didn't have the treadmill effect like the TNG holodecks, you could walk up and touch the room's wall.

Edit: Here's a quote from Ted Sullivan, the co-writer of Lathe
From: https://trekmovie.com/2017/10/31/in...scoverys-not-holodeck-lorcas-damage-and-more/

Look, they never physically interact with the Klingons. Yes, Tyler “hits a virtual button,” but you do the same thing playing Star Trek: Bridge Crew on the PS4. What you’re seeing here is a step toward the development of holodecks. It’s not a fully realized holodeck.

We talked about this a lot in the room. It’s honestly not that far removed from today’s VR experience. Are we supposed to pretend that technology just disappeared or stopped evolving? This is basically a high tech laser tag. And honestly – it was in The Animated Series. So I don’t get what the big controversy is.

Technology doesn’t just suddenly materialize overnight. You evolve slowly from punchcard machines to desktop computers to laptops to smartphones. What you’re seeing here is a step in the journey of the development of holodecks. That’s all.

 

[Damian]

Well they were able to fall into a hole in the episode it showed up in.

So it at least had some sort of simple collision/environment interaction, which the Discovery one also showed.

The Discovery holodeck wasn't very sophisticated, the Klingons barely showed any intelligence they just ran at the weapons fire, and they just vanished instead of falling over.

The only environment we saw in Discovery was a ship corridor and some rooms, nothing very complicated, no running water, no wind, nothing physics intensive.

Though the one in TAS didn't have the treadmill effect like the TNG holodecks, you could walk up and touch the room's wall.

Edit: Here's a quote from Ted Sullivan, the co-writer of Lathe
From: https://trekmovie.com/2017/10/31/in...scoverys-not-holodeck-lorcas-damage-and-more/

Yes, well I guess I can see that. It wasn't a huge deal for me. You have to figure with the spore drive something is going to happen that makes it impossible to use. They're going to have to kill the technology if they want this to be prime universe. They have to end up going back to traditional warp drive at some point.

The biggest tech issues I have that are hard to explain away are intraship beaming and the advanced forcefields. I'm not sure how you reconcile that with the Enterprise, supposedly a more advanced ship that should have that and more. Esp. since there is clear dialogue stating intraship beaming at the time of the original series is incredibly dangerous.

 

[Tuskin38]

supposedly a more advanced ship that should have that and more

The Enterprise was launched at least 10 years before the Discovery remember.

 

[DaveyNY]

That was my understanding as well. And those holograms weren't interactive. And supposedly the viewscreens were 3 dimensional pictures, though obviously we couldn't see that on a 2-D tv. The closest I ever saw to that effect was the very beginning of TSFS. When Kirk is doing his captain's log and is walking by the viewscreen, if you watch closely you can see some of the stars in the screen move just a bit in a 3-d sort of way (it's hard to explain, but it's an effect that almost gives the viewscreen depth).

But Discovery plays very fast and loose with the technology they have, when you consider what the Enterprise had in the original series (which is supposed to be a more advanced ship). The forcefields are much more like those of TNG era. The Enterprise had forcefields for the brig, but not throughout the ship, otherwise why would they ever need to use emergency bulkheads. Intraship beaming is another that I can't reconcile because Scotty was very explicit in the original series that was very dangerous to do, yet on Discovery it seems routine.

The Enterprise is older that the Discovery and the Discovery was explicitly built to be used as a testbed for a wide range of scientific experiments.
(which could include the tech for beaming between decks)
Nothing that has been said before in any Trek episode, rules out Intraship Beaming being first used during Discovery's time period.
The Enterprise most likely didn't have the hardware or the software installed to compensate for beaming between decks, thus Scotty's comment.

 

[Damian]

The Enterprise is older that the Discovery and the Discovery was explicitly built to be used as a testbed for a wide range of scientific experiments.
(which could include the tech for beaming between decks)
Nothing that has been said before in any episode, rules out Intraship Beaming being first used during Discovery's time period.
The Enterprise most likely didn't have the hardware or the software installed to compensate for beaming between decks, thus Scotty's comment.

Maybe, it just seemed something Starfleet ships didn't do in general.

And my other big thing is why are they doing intra-ship beaming anyway? I mean the times I saw it used it wasn't an emergency (even in TNG period, it wasn't used routinely). I just think to myself, can't you, you know, walk to engineering. Get some exercise. Stretch the legs.

 

[EnderAKH]

Esp. since there is clear dialogue stating intraship beaming at the time of the original series is incredibly dangerous.

Which to me makes ZERO sense. I can beam down to a planet that is completely out of my control with only orbital sensor readings (sometimes from the opposite side of the planet) to guide me, but on my own ship which is completely bunder my control, whose schematics are on file and I should be able to have various sensor readings of every square inch, somehow THAT is more dangerous?

 

[DaveyNY]

Lorca first did it with Burnham from his ready room to the Lab because he didn't want the rest of the crew to know yet, that he had the Tardigrade beamed aboard.
The second time it was used was after Ripper mauled Landry and Burnham had the two of them "emergency" beamed to sickbay.
My memory is a bit fuzzy beyond that.

 

[DaveyNY]

Which to me makes ZERO sense. I can beam down to a planet that is completely out of my control with only orbital sensor readings (sometimes from the opposite side of the planet) to guide me, but on my own ship which is completely under my control, whose schematics are on file and I should be able to have various sensor readings of every square inch, somehow THAT is more dangerous?

Well, it might be as I said above, if one's ship doesn't have the correct hardware or software to perhaps compensate for the assorted electronics and plasma conduits throughout the walls and flooring of the ship.

 

[Tuskin38]

Lorca first did it with Burnham from his ready room to the Lab because he didn't want the rest of the crew to know yet, that he had the Tardigrade beamed aboard.
The second time it was used was after Ripper mauled Landry and Burnham had the two of them "emergency" beamed to sickbay.
My memory is a bit fuzzy beyond that.

Saru had Voq'ler beamed into L'Rell's cell.

But that one makes more sense, being able to beam someone into the brig.

 

[EnderAKH]

Well, it might be as I said above, if one's ship doesn't have the correct hardware or software to perhaps compensate for the assorted electronics and plasma conduits throughout the walls and flooring of the ship.

But they CAN compensate for them when they are on the ground, in a building, in someone else's ship, and being scanned from orbit or kilometers away? Just not when they are colocated where the transporter pad happens to be? Where they have the exact plans and schematics of where those things are located?

 

[Tuskin38]

I think it was meant to be a hand wavy excuse as to why they just don't beam away intruders to the brig or something.

Or why they just don't beam security or engineering officers to emergencies.

 

[EnderAKH]

I understand for production reasons, but for me there has never been a satisfactory in-universe explanation for this rule.
"Beam me down into that volcano, with it's constantly rising, falling and changing eddies of lava."
"You've got it Captain."
"Ok, now beam me into engineering of that ship over there screaming away from us at impulse."
"Piece of cake, Captain."
"Ok, now beam me 10 feet to my left."
"Fuck you! Right here?!? On the ship?!? Are you crazy?!? That's WAY too dangerous."

 

[tomswift2002]

Which to me makes ZERO sense. I can beam down to a planet that is completely out of my control with only orbital sensor readings (sometimes from the opposite side of the planet) to guide me, but on my own ship which is completely bunder my control, whose schematics are on file and I should be able to have various sensor readings of every square inch, somehow THAT is more dangerous?

According to “Brothers” a site-to-site transport aboard ship used twice as much or more power as a transport from the pad to a planet, plus there was a chance that the signal might be damaged, as the person remained in the transporter buffer while the transporter switched from beaming in mode to beaming out mode, rather than beaming in, rematerializing, switching and the beaming out.