First Impressions

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Discovery' started by Damian, Dec 27, 2018.

  1. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Fluidic space? Science!

    Mycelial network? Craziness!

    :shrug:
     
  2. NCC-73515

    NCC-73515 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The tardigrade is not a superior being with near-omnipotence. Didn't the caretaker need the array to drag ships around? The tunnels were built. 8472 traveled back and forward with technology. Did the tardigrade wear a device to access the network? No.
    Again, the problem is with the fungi, spores and tardigrades, not with the network itself. I myself brought up fluidic space as an example for why the mycelial plane is ok.
     
  3. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    We have seen beings entering and leaving other dimensions. There is no reason to think that it is possible for such a network to develop, and tardigrades to adapt to use the network for their own survival.

    I'd rather see this than more technology that is near-magic.

    ETA: I'm reminded of Q's dialog from "All Good Things"

    Q:You just don’t get it, do you, Jean-Luc? The trial never ends. We wanted to see if you had the ability to expand your minds and your horizons, and for one brief moment, you did.

    Picard: When I realized the paradox.

    Q: Exactly. For that one fraction of a second, you were open to options you had never considered. That is the exploration that awaits you. Not mapping stars and studying nebula, but charting the unknown possibilities of existence.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2020
  4. Agony_Boothb

    Agony_Boothb Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    But how is a creature with a natural ability to traverse an intergalactic network any different than a god-like being who can snap his fingers? How is a omnipotent being more believe? The array was basically magic, and the tunnels were naturally occurring, they were not built by the vaadwaur. Species 8472's technology was biological, and they lived in mucous. How is any of that believable or scientific?
     
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  5. NCC-73515

    NCC-73515 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Cause it's like having a rat that can jump through dimensions, but nothing else beyond what a regular rat can do.
    The Q are superior in every way, and they evolved from more primitive forms. 8472 had to invent, build, harness the technology required to leave their realm.
     
  6. ScottJ85

    ScottJ85 Captain Captain

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    Do you not understand causality?
     
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  7. NCC-73515

    NCC-73515 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    enlighten me where causality comes into the comparison of invented drive technology and inherent biological abilities.
     
  8. Agony_Boothb

    Agony_Boothb Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The crystalline entity could travel at FTL speeds. The tardigrade is no different, it was native to the mycelial network hence why it could navigate it. It most likely evolved from a more primitive form to be able to do so.

    Nothing about our current understanding of evolution indicates that biological lifeforms can evolve to become energy beings or god like. But you suspend your disbelief to accommodate this. If a primitive presumably humanoid species can evolve to become a being that can snap it's fingers and literally do anything, why can't a tardigrade-like species evolve to traverse the galaxy via a different dimension? I'm not disputing that Species 8472 had to invent their technology. I am arguing that they invented a completely alien form on technology which you willingly suspend your disbelief to accept. Also they live in mucous, i'd rather live with mushrooms than snot.
     
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  9. ScottJ85

    ScottJ85 Captain Captain

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    Because causality makes all faster than light travel impossible and all proposed methods of achieving it equally implausible.
     
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  10. NCC-73515

    NCC-73515 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    why? warping space and surfing on the wave doesn't stop causality.
     
  11. ScottJ85

    ScottJ85 Captain Captain

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    An actual astrophysicist explains it here far better than I can. http://www.physicsmatt.com/blog/2016/8/25/why-ftl-implies-time-travel

    edit: I'm not even going to pretend to understand the maths. My takeaway from it is basically that any form of faster than light travel or communication (effectively the same thing for the purposes of the discussion) allows for some circumstances where effect precedes cause, and the universe really doesn't like that.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2020
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  12. Unionized Elf

    Unionized Elf Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    And even that is something Star Trek's been known to struggle with.
     
  13. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Again, exactly my point. The spore drive strikes me as an odd line in the sand to draw when it comes to suspension of disbelief. Species 8472 lives in a realm and is able to traverse between dimensions with biological based technology. The Q are always my biggest sticking point because they claim omnipotence, demonstrated the ability to instantaneously travel without any sort of mechanism, as well as crafting whole realities on a whim. Again, how is this scientific?
     
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  14. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Gomtuu weeps.
     
  15. NCC-73515

    NCC-73515 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    That only means that causality seems to be reversed for the observing ship, not that it actually is reversed. What they describe is similar to the Picard maneuver, in which the Stargazer seems to arrive in front of the Ferengi ship before it goes to warp in the distance. That's the Ferengi perspective, which is why they were confused. From the Stargazer's perspective, causality is intact. From a global spectator's perspective (with FTL perception), causality is also intact.
    Again (how many times have I repeated this now?), it's not the drive technology but the connection of fungi and a subspace plane. Q's powers are based on their advanced developmental stage that is beyond 24th century understanding. Are the fungi omnipotent? No. They're as basic as fungi are, but they're supposed to also have this specific power of Q. Like I wrote earlier, it's like having a regular rat - only this type of rat can fly to the moon with special wings no other rats have.
     
  16. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Same way that living ships grew and evolve in the vacuum of space. Same way that a biological substrate evolved to take up a whole plane of existence (fluidic space).

    That tardigrades can adapt to most any environment is the likely reason that they are able have that relationship with the spores.

    And all of it is about as scientific as most Trek. That is to say, a thin veneer that sounds really cool but doesn't always hold. Mileage will vary as to each one's acceptance.
     
  17. ScottJ85

    ScottJ85 Captain Captain

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    Read the whole thing. He addresses that.
     
  18. NCC-73515

    NCC-73515 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Do you mean that? Cause that's why I wrote what I wrote. Whatever light beam reaches them first has nothing to do with actual causality.
     
  19. ScottJ85

    ScottJ85 Captain Captain

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    then why don’t you call him and tell him to get a refund on that theoretical astrophysics degree
     
  20. NCC-73515

    NCC-73515 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    why would i :shrug:

    consider this simpler example:

    A, B and C are in a line. B is close to A, but C is far away from both.

    A............B............................C

    A turns on a lamp. It takes 5 s for the light to reach B, that's when B turns on a lamp as well.

    A----------B.............................C

    Now both light beams travel on and reach C 10 s later.

    A----------B==============C

    C sees both lamps turn on at the same time. Causality is gone! No, of course it isn't. Only from C's POV does it look that way. Every other POV can see that A was lit first and caused B to light up later.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020