First Contact Criticisms

[Dukhat]

I don't fully agree with this part. Yes, Patrick Stewart did want Picard to become an action hero. However, the entire thrust of First Contact's story was about how Picard still had some form of PTSD from his experience with the Borg and how that fundamentally was still haunting him. And let's be honest. Picard showed in TNG that he could hold his own in a fight when he needed to. But the fact is, Starfleet was actually right in their reasoning at the beginning of the film. I don't feel like the "action hero" moments that Picard has in this film feel tacked on in any way. It is when it continues beyond that film that it becomes obviously just a re-working of the character.

I respect your interpretation of Picard's actions, and if it had been contained to just this movie, then I might agree with you. But knowing the studio's (and Stewart's) want to turn Picard into an action hero, and the next two films essentially going down that road, makes me suspect that any "Borg PTSD" that Picard might have had was just the excuse the writers needed to make that happen. Remember that Picard is just a fictional character subject to the whims of whoever is writing him (and Stewart's demands.)

I agree, except I think this goes all the way back to "The Best of Both Worlds." I have always said that I think "Q Who?" was really the only time they got the Borg right, because that was written by Maurice Hurley who created them. By BoBW, they were already struggling with the idea of the Borg not having a leader. So first we get Locutus, then we get Hugh, then we get Lore, then we get the queen. The writers were always trying to take the Borg and turn them into a traditional villain with a leader instead of one collective mind.

(Of course, all that pales in comparison to how they become neutered in Voyager, but that's a discussion for another day.)

You make some good points (although making Hugh a 'Borg leader' is a bit of a stretch.) I agree that "Q Who?" was the best interpretation of them, and the only one that showed the Borg as an independent species of humanoids who willingly chose to become cybernetically enhanced, rather than the later retcon of them being assimilated against their will from other species. And honestly, the Locutus thing wasn't really so much about the Borg wanting a 'leader' so much as it was just for the shock value of Picard being turned into a Borg and challenging Riker. Because the Borg absolutely did not need someone to speak for them. That was just a plot contrivance for drama's sake (and it did work effectively, but that's all that it was; it was not a logical thing for the Borg to have done other than get Picard's knowledge of Starfleet's defenses. After that he was pretty much no different than the other drones.)

 

[Gepard]

I respect your interpretation of Picard's actions, and if it had been contained to just this movie, then I might agree with you. But knowing the studio's (and Stewart's) want to turn Picard into an action hero, and the next two films essentially going down that road, makes me suspect that any "Borg PTSD" that Picard might have had was just the excuse the writers needed to make that happen. Remember that Picard is just a fictional character subject to the whims of whoever is writing him (and Stewart's demands.)

You're probably correct on the production context, but that doesn't stop his actions from making sense in the context of this movie.

I suppose it helps if you saw it when it was released; I had three years of just this story before INS came out and revealed there were problems.

 

[Dukhat]

You're probably correct on the production context, but that doesn't stop his actions from making sense in the context of this movie.

That's fine.

I suppose it helps if you saw it when it was released; I had three years of just this story before INS came out and revealed there were problems.

I saw all of the TNG films in the theaters with the exception of INS (but I did see it on video before NEM came out.)

 

[TheAdmiralty]

1. The confrontation with Picard in the observation lounge absolutely should have been Crusher. Not only would it have given her a more significant role to play in the film, but it would have been appropriate given the history of those two characters.

I have made this observation before. She easily could have replaced Lily in the film. Not necessarily saying they should have done that, but Beverly never really got a chance to shine in the films and this would have been the time.

 

[FormerLurker]

But getting back on topic: I believe the biggest criticism I have of FC is the introduction of the most ridiculous aspect of the Borg having a 'queen' who is all sexy and emotional. It completely neuters the concept of the Borg up until then. Some shithead scriptwriter decided that the Borg are like insects, with drones and a queen (which they only superficially resemble and are far more different than ants) and that their actions are predicated on the whims of this one woman who acts nothing like the Borg.

Personally, I think the Borg 's actions are predicated on the whims of a woman who acts EXACTLY like the Borg. Which is the general idea.

 

[Ovation]

the general audience doesn't much care for Star Trek.

If true, then I wouldn’t expect any more Trek than what’s left in the can. After that, likely a decade or two before anyone takes another crack at it (I’d wager on the latter).

 

[Dukhat]

Personally, I think the Borg 's actions are predicated on the whims of a woman who acts EXACTLY like the Borg. Which is the general idea.

Then I’m not quite seeing it the way you’re seeing it, then. Not saying either of us are right or wrong, just that I find the concept of the Borg Queen absolutely ridiculous.

 

[CoveTom]

6-The way that the Enterprise gets home was cheap and lazy. The argument has been made, "there have to be shortcuts for the general audience." That's a hollow and sad argument. As CBS has hopefully learned with Abrams - Kurtzman, the general audience doesn't much care for Star Trek. The TNG movies sacrificed the very soul of what made that show what it was to appeal to a demographic that never cared.

That's just not true. The general audience doesn't care for all Star Trek, but it has been shown time and again that Trek can appeal to a wide audience. The idea that it is a niche-only product is a common myth.

When TWOK opened, it had the largest weekend gross of any movie in history. TVH was considered a blockbuster at the time and is widely regarded as a crossover success that brought in non-Trek fans. TNG was regularly pulling in ratings -- in syndication! -- that rivaled those of Monday Night Football.

No, Trek can most definitely appeal to general audiences. It all depends on how it's done.

 

[Riley]

That's just not true. The general audience doesn't care for all Star Trek, but it has been shown time and again that Trek can appeal to a wide audience. The idea that it is a niche-only product is a common myth.

When TWOK opened, it had the largest weekend gross of any movie in history. TVH was considered a blockbuster at the time and is widely regarded as a crossover success that brought in non-Trek fans. TNG was regularly pulling in ratings -- in syndication! -- that rivaled those of Monday Night Football.

No, Trek can most definitely appeal to general audiences. It all depends on how it's done.

I'm aware of those stats and was alive to see how popular the TOS films and TNG were in first-run. However, I think those numbers, while strong, reflected existing Trek fans and science fiction fans. We are not, by definition, the "general audience." I think Trek can have some crossover appeal, but I think a lot of the success of TOS, the TOS films, and TNG had to do with the fact that they were made during an era of optimism about space exploration. The general audience of that era (60s-90s) were also far better educated than the current general audience is. Space exploration optimism is all but gone (despite the success of "Project Hail Mary") and it's pretty evident that many in the general audience are either incapable or uninterested in "having to think" when watching movies and TV.

Matt Damon and Ben Affleck admitted that Netflix required them to add action set pieces and "reminders" about the basic plot of one of their films for the platform to "keep the audience engaged." Such an audience cannot appreciate what iconic Trek is; hell, even Abrams and Kurtzman's parodies can't keep their attention. Sadly, Trek is very likely obsolete in the times we live in. I suspect Skydance will attempt to exploit the IP with this new (and likely, dumb) movie, it will fail, and Trek will disappear again for even longer than after "Enterprise." It may seem cynical, but that's where we are.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

I believe the biggest criticism I have of FC is the introduction of the most ridiculous aspect of the Borg having a 'queen' who is all sexy and emotional. It completely neuters the concept of the Borg up until then. Some shithead scriptwriter decided that the Borg are like insects, with drones and a queen (which they only superficially resemble and are far more different than ants) and that their actions are predicated on the whims of this one woman who acts nothing like the Borg.

Studio notes! Hold on, Michael Piller writes about this in his book on Insurrection...

Star Trek fans are a breed apart. If we have a character say “Fire phasers!” and then show a shot of the Enterprise firing a photon torpedo by mistake, hundreds of fans, maybe thousands, will write and complain. Star Trek fans are passionate and eloquent and unrelenting and one of them is the boss of bosses on this lot. Jonathan Dolgen, Chairman of Viacom Entertainment Group, is credited by Rick for the creation of the Borg Queen in the last movie because he felt the script lacked a strong villain. Rick has to take Dolgen’s suggestions seriously for obvious reasons. But he also feels that Dolgen is incredibly smart about Star Trek as only a true fan can be.

 

[Dukhat]

Studio notes! Hold on, Michael Piller writes about this in his book on Insurrection...

I’m confused. Did Dolgen actually come up with the concept of the Borg Queen, or did he just want a better villain and left it up to Berman to figure that out?

 

[Allyn Gibson]

I’m confused. Did Dolgen actually come up with the concept of the Borg Queen, or did he just want a better villain and left it up to Berman to figure that out?

The way Piller writes it, Berman gives Dolgen the credit for the Borg Queen. But Dolgen is a studio executive, so it would have come down to Berman, Moore, and Braga to figure out the details.

So, the way I read it, Dolgen gave notes and wanted a villain with a face, and the BMB gestalt came up with the Borg Queen to satisfy the studio demands. They (the writers) did the actual work, but Berman gives Dolgen the credit.

 

[FredH]

Yep, and we're just supposed to forget that this was possible. It might have been nice if they'd instead had to use the slingshot method to get home, which some of the general audience might have remembered from Star Trek IV.

Now that you mention it, it might have been nice to see some big stone TNG heads, sure.

 

[Dukhat]

The way Piller writes it, Berman gives Dolgen the credit for the Borg Queen. But Dolgen is a studio executive, so it would have come down to Berman, Moore, and Braga to figure out the details.

So, the way I read it, Dolgen gave notes and wanted a villain with a face, and the BMB gestalt came up with the Borg Queen to satisfy the studio demands. They (the writers) did the actual work, but Berman gives Dolgen the credit.

Yeah, I figured it was similar to the Temporal Cold War thing (was rumored to have been UPN’s idea when in fact all they wanted was something more Sci-Fi gimmicky than just the formation of the Federation premise, and Berman & Braga came up with the actual idea for the TCW to appease them.)

 

[BillJ]

The way Piller writes it, Berman gives Dolgen the credit for the Borg Queen. But Dolgen is a studio executive, so it would have come down to Berman, Moore, and Braga to figure out the details.

So, the way I read it, Dolgen gave notes and wanted a villain with a face, and the BMB gestalt came up with the Borg Queen to satisfy the studio demands. They (the writers) did the actual work, but Berman gives Dolgen the credit.

To appeal to the masses, Dolgen was probably right.

 

[FormerLurker]

Yeah, I figured it was similar to the Temporal Cold War thing (was rumored to have been UPN’s idea when in fact all they wanted was something more Sci-Fi gimmicky than just the formation of the Federation premise, and Berman & Braga came up with the actual idea for the TCW to appease them.)

Everything the UPN execs did after founding the network was stupid. Even when they did the intelligent thing, they did it in a stupid way.

 

[PCz911]

I have to say that I really like the movie - but also that it's over rated. For me, a 7/10 - I remember reviewing it for a fanzine and saying that the TNG crew were getting the hang of things, and the next one would be a classic. How wrong I was.

So here are my issues with the movie.
1. Picard is completely out of character. He murders his own crewman rather than let him be assimilated - even though we know it is a reversible process.
2. Why do the Borg battle all the way to earth and then use the time jump thing?
3. Why take Data to earth? he sticks out like a sore thumb.
4. Why do you have warp plasma tanks in engineering that are easily punctured?
5. How did the Vulcans not detect the torpedoes heading towards the Pheonix?

I mean, there's more nit picks, but like Generations - there is a fundamental plot hole (number 2) just like Guinan saying they can leave the Nexus anytime and anywhere. The movie is leagues ahead of Insurrection and Nemesis though.

I totally get why they went with Woodard over McFadden - just look at McFadden's diversion scene. I mean, that's some B grade acting right there.

First Contact is a pretty simple movie that is well directed and lit. It also benefits immeasurably from a killer Jerry Goldsmith score.

I will forever be gutted that TNG couldn't transition to the big screen successfully. Man did I love the TV show, which was way smarter. Imagine Redemption, The Best of Both Worlds - or Yesterdays Enterprise as a big budget movie - boy that would have been epic. Instead we got Generations, which was made on the cheap and was stymied by studio demands, First Contact, which works - but is a rip off from better Sci-Fi movies like Alien. And the less said about Insurrection and Nemesis the better - Insurrection was ruined by Patrick Stewart interfering and Nemesis was ruined by Brent Spiner interfering.

If I may…

6- the character of zefram cochrane is NOTHING like that from tos. I can’t see the movie character ever evolving into the one from the show…..

(Yes, it’s a pet peeve)

 

[CoveTom]

If I may…

6- the character of zefram cochrane is NOTHING like that from tos. I can’t see the movie character ever evolving into the one from the show…..

(Yes, it’s a pet peeve)

Not to mention that the TOS character was supposed to be from Alpha Centauri.

 

[JamesRye]

If I may…

6- the character of zefram cochrane is NOTHING like that from tos. I can’t see the movie character ever evolving into the one from the show…..

(Yes, it’s a pet peeve)

I can totally understand that criticism, but if you like, I can play devils advocate.

The Cochrane we meet in First Contact has survived a nuclear war, so he's jaded and cynical. As I remember, he flies off into space to die at some point. Maybe he was headed to Alpha Centauri? Spock says that he can't be Cochrane because he died 150 years ago. So maybe the Companion who restored him smoothed out his "rough edges" which is why he looks different and maybe all that time in isolation with the alien changed the man himself - he comes to terms with living with his legacy.

I always associate Roddenberry with Cochrane - someone who had flaws but was loved by millions and couldn't possibly live up to his 'vision'.

 

[Imaus]

I can totally understand that criticism, but if you like, I can play devils advocate.

The Cochrane we meet in First Contact has survived a nuclear war, so he's jaded and cynical. As I remember, he flies off into space to die at some point. Maybe he was headed to Alpha Centauri? Spock says that he can't be Cochrane because he died 150 years ago. So maybe the Companion who restored him smoothed out his "rough edges" which is why he looks different and maybe all that time in isolation with the alien changed the man himself - he comes to terms with living with his legacy.

I always associate Roddenberry with Cochrane - someone who had flaws but was loved by millions and couldn't possibly live up to his 'vision'.

Enterprise says Cochrane makes it to c. 2110, 60 years after the movie. That'll be ~150 years before his appearance in TOS, so he does go away by then. No way he hadn't already become 'of Alpha Centauri' by then, even with Warp 2 he'd get there in 6 months and always had the hallmarks of a scientist who'd keep pushing his engines and be the first or part of the first to go. By his last appearance in Enterprise he looked retired and honored.

Honestly its more of a problem of the series refusing to really do anything with Centauri and its absence just becomes more and more glaring as time goes on....