First Contact Criticisms

[SatrianiRules]

Wut? It took way more than a few new torpedoes to take down the cube. And Starfleet was getting its ass kicked before the Enterprise showed up. Picard and his connection to the Borg were the key to that victory.

As for the sphere getting destroyed by a torpedo volley. That's a weird one, yeah. Maybe the sphere was damaged while sitting in the cube as it was being pummeled.

even more ridiculous then, Enterprise shows up and kicks ass, yet earlier they were told to stay away because of Picard...if a couple of Enterprise Torpedoes would do the trick, why even send other ships to get pummeled?

But according to Data the cube had already sustained "heavy damage to it's outer hull" by the other ships when they got there...what happened to "They have Adapted..."? (Hollywood Script, that's what happened, I get it)

so a few inconsistencies for the sake of plot, happens in every movie, nothing to be done about it

 

[CoveTom]

even more ridiculous then, Enterprise shows up and kicks ass, yet earlier they were told to stay away because of Picard...if a couple of Enterprise Torpedoes would do the trick, why even send other ships to get pummeled?

But according to Data the cube had already sustained "heavy damage to it's outer hull" by the other ships when they got there...what happened to "They have Adapted..."? (Hollywood Script, that's what happened, I get it)

so a few inconsistencies for the sake of plot, happens in every movie, nothing to be done about it

You are missing the point. It had nothing to do with the Enterprise or its torpedoes. It was the fact that Picard still had a connection to the Borg collective and was able to hear them during the battle, which allowed him to figure out where they were vulnerable. And even then, knowing their vulnerable spot, it took the entirety of the fleet massing their combined firepower on that one spot to manage to destroy the cube. It wasn't just a couple torpedoes from the Enterprise.

 

[David cgc]

As for the sphere getting destroyed by a torpedo volley. That's a weird one, yeah. Maybe the sphere was damaged while sitting in the cube as it was being pummeled.

It was the time travel that partially-disabled both ships. The sphere went down from only three torpedos for the same reason the Enterprise’s shields and sensors were down and the Borg could beam over without being detected.

 

[flyerdog]

You are missing the point. It had nothing to do with the Enterprise or its torpedoes. It was the fact that Picard still had a connection to the Borg collective and was able to hear them during the battle, which allowed him to figure out where they were vulnerable. And even then, knowing their vulnerable spot, it took the entirety of the fleet massing their combined firepower on that one spot to manage to destroy the cube. It wasn't just a couple torpedoes from the Enterprise.

the question is that the regular fleet was able to cause "heavy damage to its outer hull" as per Data, before E got there...why didn't that work at Wolf 359 against that cube where 40 starships were crushed..see the problem? As far as we know the rest of the fleet was using conventional Starfleet weapons until E arrived..The whole point of the Borg until that moment was Adaptability. and those ships that caused "heavy damage to its outer hull" didn't have Picard's insight yet...

but again it doesn't detract from the movie, it's just one of those niggling little points that we die hards would recognize, still a great scene and great movie, to be sure (and continued the ST even numbered movie tradition)

 

[Detached Nacelle]

the question is that the regular fleet was able to cause "heavy damage to its outer hull" as per Data, before E got there...why didn't that work at Wolf 359 against that cube where 40 starships were crushed..see the problem? As far as we know the rest of the fleet was using conventional Starfleet weapons until E arrived..The whole point of the Borg until that moment was Adaptability. and those ships that caused "heavy damage to its outer hull" didn't have Picard's insight yet...

At Wolf 359 the Borg were aware in advance of everything the Federation and probably even the Klingons could throw at them.

At 001 Starfleet had had 6 years to create new phaser technology explicitly to fight the Borg. Developed upgraded photon torpedoes and quantum torpedoes. This was a prepared Starfleet which had been scared into a slighlty more militaristic approach by the Borg and Dominion.

The Defiant and possibly Prometheus were designed due to Wolf 359.

They also changed up their tactics to swarm against the Borg instead of single file lines.

 

[Sketcher]

It's almost like Starfleet....

(•_•)
( •_•)>⌐■-■
(⌐■_■)

...adapted.

 

[flyerdog]

At Wolf 359 the Borg were aware in advance of everything the Federation and probably even the Klingons could throw at them.

At 001 Starfleet had had 6 years to create new phaser technology explicitly to fight the Borg. Developed upgraded photon torpedoes and quantum torpedoes. This was a prepared Starfleet which had been scared into a slighlty more militaristic approach by the Borg and Dominion.

The Defiant and possibly Prometheus were designed due to Wolf 359.

They also changed up their tactics to swarm against the Borg instead of single file lines.

and the Defiant got crushed too... ("Prepare for Ramming Speed!!!')
They might have mentioned it, otherwise the knee jerk reaction is "Wait a minute..." And tactics wouldn't have mattered if you can't crack the armor to begin with , clearly they could, but there was no mention of it...much like the Empire learned nothing from the destruction of the first Death Star...and so it happened again!!!

or if Starfleet had concerns about Jean Luc, they could have dumped him on a star base and let Riker take the ship in, for the battle much like Jericho assumed temporary command when Jean Luc was reassigned, i know nit-picking, but hey it's been a slow day!!!!

 

[CoveTom]

I'd also like to point out that doing damage to the Borg ship has never been the issue. In their very first encounter in "Q, Who?" we see the Enterprise doing significant damage to the Borg ship. It's not like Borg ships have ever been depicted as completely invulnerable. That's the whole reason Riker and his team were able to beam aboard -- they were repairing the ship. Doing enough damage to completely destroy them was always the issue.

 

[Uxi]

I'd also like to point out that doing damage to the Borg ship has never been the issue. In their very first encounter in "Q, Who?" we see the Enterprise doing significant damage to the Borg ship. It's not like Borg ships have ever been depicted as completely invulnerable. That's the whole reason Riker and his team were able to beam aboard -- they were repairing the ship. Doing enough damage to completely destroy them was always the issue.

Well before they adapt and then they can't be damaged again. 1701-D was unloading everything she had with zero effect after that.

 

[CoveTom]

Well before they adapt and then they can't be damaged again. 1701-D was unloading everything she had with zero effect after that.

Starfleet is quite capable of adapting as well, though. In that particular case, Q got them out of the mess before they came up with any other solution, but later after the Borg problem had been studied some time, we saw them coming up with some adaptations that at least helped.

My point is, though, that the idea of the massive fleet doing some damage to the Borg cube, but not destroying it, is not exactly unrealistic based on other encounters we've seen. And I think it was the fact that Picard was able to hear the collective and determine a weak spot that made the fleet ultimately able to destroy the cube, not some magical abilities on the part of the Enterprise-E. Yes, the E was one of the newest and most advanced ships in the fleet at the time, but I don't see any evidence that suggests that had it been a different captain with no knowledge of the Borg, it would have been able to come in and just save the day.

 

[flyerdog]

Well before they adapt and then they can't be damaged again. 1701-D was unloading everything she had with zero effect after that.

yes that was kind of my point exactly...the rest of the fleet (again as per Data's direct quote) Did significant damage to the outer hull...

and in Q Who? they gave the cube a bloody nose, but that was about it...even in First Contact, they adapted quickly to Phasers, as Worf exclaimed in the corridors