Firing Phasers At Warp.

[Mytran]

Found it, but I had it backwards:

A Taste of Armageddon

SCOTT: We can't fire full phasers with our screens up, and we can't lower our screens with their disruptors on us. Of course I could treat them to a few dozen photon torpedoes.​

This might further support the notion that the phasers are related to the deflector systems (AKA screens) whereas the "photon torpedoes" (even if they are not physical weapons at this point in the series development) are a separate, perhaps even a less powerful system...

 

[Timo]

Or then it's just that Scotty's "full" here indicates that full shielding and full phasers are mutually exclusive for power distribution reasons, and less than full shielding is the thing he thinks tactically inadvisable at the time.

Why "half phasers" would not be desirable is not stated. But possibly it isn't. Scotty just says that all they currently have is half phasers, and photon torpedoes, and a number of tricks up his sleeve that he would gladly list if asked. The gist of the scene, after all, is that he's itching for action - and this, rather than any concrete despair of being short of means, might be his motivation for getting all hot and bothered about the technical specifics of that action. It's not "Sorry, Doctor, I can't apply full phasers": it's "Ach, indeed! I can apply half phasers right now, jus' give me a reason!". And then Fox steps in and gives him a wet blanket instead.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Henoch]

Can you find a video clip of that scene?

I think Elaan of Troyius is close, but the Klingon ship was firing Disrupters at high warp and the Enterprise (at sublight) was firing photon torpedoes. A closer match would be from Journey to Babel with the Alien ship traveling at warp 10 and both ships firing standard phasers at each other. Battle starts about at the 2:00 min mark:

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[Timo]

The weird discord between quoted Klingon warp speeds and quoted Klingon distances in the "Elaan" fight calls for some sort of apology, and three readily present themselves:

1) High warp deep within this star system amounts to low sublight speeds, just as in all those time travel episodes where sustained warp deep inside a system is surprisingly slow (this perhaps being the same thing as time travel?). This is why the ship only moves in increments of dozens of thousands of kilometers between quotes.

2) Klingons actually warp in, drop out of warp to fire, and warp out, making it impossible for Kirk to fire back with his short-ranged phasers, or to turn his sluggish ship to point the torpedoes at the foe. This either in mockery of Kirk's disabilities, or because the disruptors actually work better when fired from a STL platform.

3) Klingons actually move very fast, at high FTL just as stated, until their very final run where they creep cautiously towards Kirk's ship out of fear of her just playing 'possum. Or then in mockery of his helplessness. All the previous cases where mention of high warp is associated with a distance figure are mere isolated datapoints where the foe spends a microsecond at the quoted distance but this specific distance somehow is tactically relevant (they turn there, or fire there, or whatever).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[valkyrie013]

Well in "real" space combat, you won't see each other, and most of the time beam/lazers, are close in weapons, where missles or torpedos are long range weapons, and then there's weapons pods that are shot like missles, but have masers, bomb pumped gamma ray lasers, whole slew of stuff.
Star Trek is really unique in that FTL is NOT a life saver like a hyperspace jump. If your not faster than the other guy or more cunning, you will be caught up to and attacked AT Warp.
Most other sci fi is instantanious jumps, or safely in hyperspace, or battle in hyperspace is not a good idea

 

[StarCruiser]

I've had a personal theory that actual warp speeds (meaning how many times c they are actually going) may be dependent on the local gravity background conditions...

Basically, in open space - away from a star system - you can go hundreds of times c. In system, it's limited to much lower speed due to the local gravity wells. In a void space (like the "space desert" in Squire of Gothos) you can go thousands of times c due to the very 'smooth' environment.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I've had a personal theory that actual warp speeds (meaning how many times c they are actually going) may be dependent on the local gravity background conditions...

Basically, in open space - away from a star system - you can go hundreds of times c. In system, it's limited to much lower speed due to the local gravity wells. In a void space (like the "space desert" in Squire of Gothos) you can go thousands of times c due to the very 'smooth' environment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airspeed

So similar to modern aviation where we have multiple "Air Speeds" based on situation and sensor:
IAS (Indicated Air Speed)
CAS (Calibrated Air Speed)
EAS (Equivalent Air Speed)
TAS (True Air Speed)

we can extrapolate a similar system:
IWF (Indicated Warp Factor)
CWF (Calibrated Warp Factor)
EWF (Equivalent Warp Factor)
TWF (True Warp Factor)

 

[StarCruiser]

Sorta kinda...

The idea is simply that gravity wells create "noise" in subspace. A warp engine needs to compensate for that noise and that takes some energy and effort to do so, reducing how much can actually go towards speed.

Like a ship running through a Sea State 0 or 1 (calm conditions) making better speed than one dealing with Sea State 6 or 7 (rough and stormy). In calm waters you can do pretty much whatever you like speed-wise. In rough conditions, the ship is tossed and may have to alter course to head into the waves - slow it's speed to simply control it's direction and ride it out.

 

[Go-Captain]

I've had a personal theory that actual warp speeds (meaning how many times c they are actually going) may be dependent on the local gravity background conditions...

Basically, in open space - away from a star system - you can go hundreds of times c. In system, it's limited to much lower speed due to the local gravity wells. In a void space (like the "space desert" in Squire of Gothos) you can go thousands of times c due to the very 'smooth' environment.

I like to think warp drive is effected by nothing more than deep space dust. The denser the atmosphere of space, the slower the ship. That explains why in The Journey Home the bird of prey warps from Earth's surface in a way which is pretty slow and non-destructive, and why subspace phenomena might be faster between galaxies than within a dustier galaxy.

 

[Noname Given]

I think Elaan of Troyius is close, but the Klingon ship was firing Disrupters at high warp and the Enterprise (at sublight) was firing photon torpedoes.

Nope - when the 1701 was firing the Photons - they were 'pivoting' at Warp Factor 2 - IE the Photons WERE fired while they were at Warp.

 

[Lord Other]

I like to think warp drive is effected by nothing more than deep space dust. The denser the atmosphere of space, the slower the ship.

Personally, I think both of you are correct. I think the warp drive is affected by local space density (in the context of physics, a denser Higgs field) *AND* the density of particles and matter in intervening space. For example in local interstellar space at higher warp speeds, you're applying more power to the warp field to go faster, but also as a result your navigational deflector must use more power to protect the vessel from the interstellar medium which in effect is acting like a particle beam constantly acting against the ship. Likewise traveling in a crowded stellar neighborhood would IMHO require more energy to bandy between the stars (due to the pull of gravity / Higgs field), than to travel voids where it's relatively empty and devoid of massive objects. The effect is that the faster the ship goes, the more energy is required not only for propulsion (more is required near massive objects), but for maintaining containment of the M/AM reactions, the structural integrity field (assuming that's what Scotty referred to when he's talking about holding the ship together), and of course the deflectors. Eventually you reach a point where the system can't do any better, and either containment goes and the ship explodes (think "Arena") or the structural integrity is close to failure (like in "The Changeling"), or you can have the Kelvans come along and tinker with the whole thing, and afterwards you can go all the way up to Warp 14.1 before she gives up the ghost. That's my observation, and of course YMMV.

 

[Henoch]

Eventually you reach a point where the system can't do any better, and either containment goes and the ship explodes (think "Arena") or the structural integrity is close to failure (like in "The Changeling"), or you can have the Kelvans come along and tinker with the whole thing, and afterwards you can go all the way up to Warp 14.1 before she gives up the ghost. That's my observation, and of course YMMV.

Nice observation. After the Kelvan tinkering (sustained warp 11), the Enterprise was able to hit warp 9+ routinely. Prior to this episode, they never went above warp 8 (except for the Nomad tampering to the fuel injectors where they hit warp 11, but the ship's structure was failing as you said.) I guess we need to thank the technical advances by both Nomad and the Kelvans for sustained warp 11 max. speed.

From That Which Survives where in excess of warp 11 was not good:

RAHDA [OC]: Mister Spock, we're at warp eleven point two and accelerating.
SCOTT: I heard that. The ship's not structured to take that speed for any length of time.​

 

[Lord Other]

Nice observation. After the Kelvan tinkering (sustained warp 11), the Enterprise was able to hit warp 9+ routinely. Prior to this episode, they never went above warp 8 (except for the Nomad tampering to the fuel injectors where they hit warp 11, but the ship's structure was failing as you said.) I guess we need to thank the technical advances by both Nomad and the Kelvans for sustained warp 11 max. speed.

From That Which Survives where in excess of warp 11 was not good:

RAHDA [OC]: Mister Spock, we're at warp eleven point two and accelerating.
SCOTT: I heard that. The ship's not structured to take that speed for any length of time.​

Thanks @Henoch! Headcanon wise it's where I think the Kimble/Probert, et al came up with the TMP E's refit cruising speed of Warp 8, and emergency speed of Warp 12 in literature. She might have been able to exceed Warp 8 easily, but the wear and tear / FOB rates when the ship exceeded cruising speed wasn't merited unless it was absolutely necessary. Likewise the refit may have been a necessary response by Starfleet to the improved algorithms and formulas Nomad's alterations provided and to the technology that the Kelvan's introduced to the Federation vis-à-vis in "By Any Other Name". Otherwise ships of the E's generation may have had more numerous mechanical or structural issues over the rest of their (fictional) operational lives (and hence more time in drydock).

 

[Mytran]

Indeed - a comparison of the dialogue in the 2 episodes shows that a technological change on the ship MUST have happened:

THE CHANGELING has Scotty declaring mere Warp 10 speeds impossible and Kirk confirming that the ship cannot handle the stress of Warp 11

SCOTT: Cut your circuits, all of them.
ENGINEER: Warp 10, Mister Scott.
SCOTT: Impossible. It can't go that fast.
ENGINEER: It just won't stop, Mister Scott. Warp eleven!
KIRK: Nomad, stop what you're doing. Scotty?
NOMAD: Is there a problem, Creator? I have increased engine efficiency fifty seven percent.
KIRK: You will destroy my ship. Its structure cannot stand the stress of that much power. Turn off your repair operation.​

THAT WHICH SURVIVES has Scotty casually acknowledging that a Warp 11.2 will be a problem if sustained for any length of time, yet the vessel increases speed to Warp 13.2 over the next 9 minutes and still holds together! She's a tough little ship.

RAHDA Mister Spock, we're at warp eleven point two and accelerating.
SCOTT: I heard that. The ship's not structured to take that speed for any length of time.​

 

[Henoch]

I head canon that Nomad showed a technical "optimization" for the ship's engines to make more power and drive the ship faster (up to warp 11), but the ship's structural integrity field was not up to the stresses for anything above warp 10. Both prior to this episode and after (up to the Kelvan episode), the ship never exceeded warp 8 (four times it hit warp 8; twice before the episode and twice after), so, I don't think there was any lasting change to the ship due to the Nomad "repairs".

With the Kelvan modifications, the ship's structural integrity field was upgraded to handle sustained warp 11. I assume that the Kelvans removed their special power unit and alien materials, but left other ship modifications in place that were done to channel extra power to the existing structural integrity field systems. After this episode, the Enterprise was able to safely exceed warp 8 six times (warp = 9, 9, 9.5, 9, 8.4+, 10). Based on just observed speeds, the Enterprise definitely got faster after the Kelvan modifications.

 

[Go-Captain]

Structural integrity as a limit fits ENT and VOY, since the ENT was shaking really badly when pushing warp 5.2, I think. In Voyager when testing a new drive on a shuttle the warp nacelles ripped off; a structural strength issue.

 

[Timo]

...Perversely, this establishes structural strength as a virtual non-issue as regards warp drive: while early ships with poorly tuned drives may be shaking to pieces, the 24th century heroes can ramp their warp drive up to frickin' INFINITY and only encounter and then solve moderate structural issues. Warp by its very nature is smoooooooth.

Interstellar dust as a limiter would probably scale up as the square or cube of velocity: it's not exactly drag, but it certainly gets worse when you hit it faster. So apparently warp drive at high factors is essentially immune to interstellar dust, or Torres and Kim couldn't make Paris approach infinity. Immune in the sense of there not being losses to the drive itself from the dust, that is. Whatever hardships the dust would impose on the spacecraft is a different matter, but apparently again a non-issue. Perhaps the navigational deflector also has smooth infinite performance? Or perhaps warp drive by its very nature takes care of that problem, even though ships still are equipped with navigational deflectors for some reason.

Something outworldly, such as subspace, probably remains our best bet for explaining the limits of warp. We get "subspace sandbars" and tsunami-like phenomena on screen. Perhaps the analogy can be expected so that vessels at high warp start "planing" over the subspace wave structure, and resistance to movement is drastically decreased at high velocities? Getting something like that out of physical obstacles like interstellar matter density would be much more difficult to accept.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[publiusr]

Perhaps phasers have some tachyons to them as a carrier

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Perhaps phasers have some tachyons to them as a carrier

Not to my knowledge. They would specifically mention if Tachyons are involved. Usually Tachyons are incredibly rare and not part of daily usage in things like phasers.

 

[Timo]

Transporters supposedly had nothing to do with Subspace, since the buzzword was never used in the context - until it was, when establishing that Subspace Transporters are a separate thing altogether ("Bloodlines", "Raijin"), but not before first establishing that there was a Subspace Frequency involved in the regular system ("Best of Both Worlds", "Data's Day").

That's two mentions essentially against and two for. But one is all it takes, in this fake reality, and the things said in "BoBW" and "Data's Day" make it quite clear that subspace is involved there, while the other two merely give a fancy name to a speculative technology without establishing much about working principles. Perhaps phasers thus also involve Tachyons - and we simply haven't gotten our single mention of this yet?

I mean, how often is Internal Combustion brought up in movies featuring car chases...?

Timo Saloniemi