Finished Bablyon 5 for the first time (spoilers)

[Starfleet Engineer]

I finally finished B5 today. A very heart tugging final episode. My overall take on the series is that it was a very good space opera. Though, it did not, in the overall, meet the expectations that had been set up for me by people here. It's not the best scifi show ever written, but it ranks high. I will say that it did have episodes that did meet that high expectation. Here's how I rank the seasons.

3 Had several episodes that rank as excellent
4 Very good story, but, afterwards, I thought this battle with earth might've been better placed at the beginning of the series and then have the Shadow War afterward. I was a bit disappointed in how G'Kar really hated Londo and then seemed to change, almost overnight, into being able to smile and laugh with him. That seemed off.
5 Some here have said that this season wasn't that good, so my expectations weren't very high, but it was a very good season.
2 The transistion to Sheridan. The last 1/3 of it was very good.
1 Well, it's a first season like many. I thought it was average and I finally came around to liking Sinclaire with his overly-dramatic acting and then he's gone.

I do have some questions that I hope some of you can answer.

Is there a particular reason that we didn't have an episode where we saw the playing out of the scene where Londo and G'Kar are choking each other to death?

Was it always in the story that Sinclaire would leave or was it a behind the scenes reason that he left?

Why did the woman who played Ivanova leave at the end of season 4?

In one of the DVD extras, they mention novels like a trilogy about Bester, some novels about Londo as Emperor. Without giving spoilers, what's the general consensus about the quality of the novels?

Do we know if Emperor Vir had a "Keeper" attached to him in the final episode or are we to assume that 20 years later the Drak and the Keepers are gone?

Oh, and I was a bit disappointed they changed the theme music and opening sequence in season 5. What they changed it to was hokie and very much like an old 70s TV show. The original theme should've stayed.

 

[Lindley]

Re: Finished Bablyon 5 for the first time

Is there a particular reason that we didn't have an episode where we saw the playing out of the scene where Londo and G'Kar are choking each other to death?

We did: "War Without End, Part 2". People assume it's a "false" version of the future because it's a flash-forward and scifi shows always ignore those, but in this case, it's not.

The Legions of Fire trilogy by Peter David gives it more context, though book 3 can be hard to find.

Was it always in the story that Sinclaire would leave or was it a behind the scenes reason that he left?

It was always planned that Sheridan would be introduced, though initially he wasn't supposed to be so central. The full story may never be known there....

Why did the woman who played Ivanova leave at the end of season 4?

Miscommunications, actually. Several of them. Massive screwups on all sides as I understand it.

In one of the DVD extras, they mention novels like a trilogy about Bester, some novels about Londo as Emperor. Without giving spoilers, what's the general consensus about the quality of the novels?

The three trilogies and two of the numbered novels (To Dream in the City of Sorrows and The Shadow Within) are considered 90% canonical and are well worth reading. The other numbered novels are generally less well-regarded, though I can't comment on them personally as I've only read the "canonical 11".

Do we know if Emperor Vir had a "Keeper" attached to him in the final episode or are we to assume that 20 years later the Drak and the Keepers are gone?

He did not. More in Legions of Fire.

Oh, and I was a bit disappointed they changed the theme music and opening sequence in season 5. What they changed it to was hokie and very much like an old 70s TV show. The original theme should've stayed.

They changed it every year, but I've heard that complain before. I like it well enough though. There's an extended version of the first half of it in the "Voices of Authority Suite" mp3 if you can find that.

 

[DWF]

It was always planned that Sheridan would be introduced, though initially he wasn't supposed to be so central. The full story may never be known there....

I don't think so Sheridan came from the need to emotional tie the CO of the station to events on Zha'Ha'Dum which couldn't be done with Sinclair.

 

[FalTorPan]

Re: Finished Bablyon 5 for the first time

The three trilogies and two of the numbered novels (To Dream in the City of Sorrows and The Shadow Within) are considered 90% canonical and are well worth reading.

What does "90% canonical" mean?

 

[Pilot Ace]

Re: Finished Bablyon 5 for the first time

The three trilogies and two of the numbered novels (To Dream in the City of Sorrows and The Shadow Within) are considered 90% canonical and are well worth reading.

What does "90% canonical" mean?

JMS wrote the outlines and the authors handled all the other details in most cases, I believe.

 

[Lindley]

Re: Finished Bablyon 5 for the first time

The three trilogies and two of the numbered novels (To Dream in the City of Sorrows and The Shadow Within) are considered 90% canonical and are well worth reading.

What does "90% canonical" mean?

Meaning the events happened as described, but they don't really have green PPG blasts in the future just because Greg Keyes made a mistake.

It's a wiggle-room clause.

 

[David cgc]

It was always planned that Sheridan would be introduced, though initially he wasn't supposed to be so central. The full story may never be known there....

I don't think so Sheridan came from the need to emotional tie the CO of the station to events on Zha'Ha'Dum which couldn't be done with Sinclair.

Actually, I believe that Catherine Sakai was going to be the emotional connection. She would've gone missing on the Rim during season 2.

 

[Reverend]

Re: Finished Bablyon 5 for the first time

Just to be clear, only 'The Shadow Within' is "90% canonical", the rest are 100%.
In case anyone doubts that; what follows is an excerpt from the introduction of "To Dream in the City of Sorrows".

"To Dream in the City of Sorrows is not simply a licensed book set in the BABYLON 5 universe. While most of the Dell books to date have contained some elements that are considered canon, this is the very first one that is considered canonical in every small detail.
What you hold in your hand is an official, authorized chapter in the BABYLON 5 story line. This is the definitive answer to the Sinclair question, and should be considered as authentic as any episode in the regular series. This, you should also know, is Kathryn Drennan's first novel, though she's a Clarion graduate who has been published in Twilight Zone magazine and many other fine magazines. She has also written for several television series, including BABYLON 5, for which she penned the excellent episode "By Any Means Necessary." This novel marks the first time an original BABYLON 5 novel has been written by someone who has actually written for the series itself. Trust me. You'll love it. Would this face lie?"
J. Michael Straczynski Executive Producer/Creator BABYLON 5
19 February 1997

For those who haven't read it,the book tells the story of how Sinclair came to be Entil'Zha, how Marcus became a Ranger and what happened to Catherine Sakai.
I understand it's not as hard to obtain as some of the trilogies.

As for 'Shadow Within', I've yet to figure out what the "uncanonical 10%" is. Most of the details seam right, even down to why Morden grabbed that necklace of his when he was freaking out over what Londo did with Selini.

 

[DWF]

It was always planned that Sheridan would be introduced, though initially he wasn't supposed to be so central. The full story may never be known there....

I don't think so Sheridan came from the need to emotional tie the CO of the station to events on Zha'Ha'Dum which couldn't be done with Sinclair.

Actually, I believe that Catherine Sakai was going to be the emotional connection. She would've gone missing on the Rim during season 2.

http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/countries/us/guide/023.html#JS

Sheridan, or more specifically the need for someone *like* Sheridan began to get through clearly toward the latter part of last season, as I began planning out season two's progression, and kept looking at elements of the story and trying to find ways to get Sinclair into the heart of them. They felt contrived, for the most part; and the other characters, like Londo and G'Kar and Delenn, were *really* moving forward in a big way. The role of Sinclair was becoming primarily that of a "problem solver," and when that happens, a sort of glass bell falls down around the character, and you can't do much with him.
So what the writer has to do is break that bell in one way or another; do something totally unexpected to him, and bring in someone who has a direct, personal connection with the storyline emerging in season two, so it's not contrived or forced.

 

[Harvey]

Re: Finished Bablyon 5 for the first time

As for 'Shadow Within', I've yet to figure out what the "uncanonical 10%" is. Most of the details seam right, even down to why Morden grabbed that necklace of his when he was freaking out over what Londo did with Selini.

I thought JMS said it was the Sheridan side of that book. Regardless of whether he said that or not, that's what seemed likely upon reading it. Although I didn't really have a problem with any of the details, and include it in the lot of canon materials.

 

[Jan]

Is there a particular reason that we didn't have an episode where we saw the playing out of the scene where Londo and G'Kar are choking each other to death?

Technically, because there are no episodes during that time period. We did find out why it happened in 'War Without End, Part 2' and there's more detail in the Centauri Prime trilogy of books.

Was it always in the story that Sinclaire would leave or was it a behind the scenes reason that he left?

No, the idea came to JMS toward the end of the first season as he was thinking toward the future. What he wanted to do would have required Sinclair's character to take a back seat for an extended period of time so the change was made with the understanding that the character could come back from time to time.

Why did the woman who played Ivanova leave at the end of season 4?

Short version-she tried a 'contract negotiation' that failed.

Oh, and I was a bit disappointed they changed the theme music and opening sequence in season 5. What they changed it to was hokie and very much like an old 70s TV show. The original theme should've stayed.

The theme music changed every season, both opening and closing. I think I like the fifth season best but that may be because I like that sequence the best. Probably my favorite of all was the special DVD suite that Christopher Franke did for the fourth season DVD set.

Jan

 

[Lindley]

Actually, the end credit music changed less than the opening music. Although there were a couple of end credit arrangements that only lasted one episode...."The Coming of Shadows" being the example I can think of right now.

 

[Starfleet Engineer]

Well, it was basically the same music for 4 seasons. Season 5 was a major change. That's what I was referring to.

A while back some people here referred to something embarrassing that Ivanova does. Some kind of dance or something? I never saw any kind of dance. She did come stumbling out of a....what's the equivalent of a turbo lift in B5? Well, she came out of one of those and there was a Drazi on the floor of it when she came out. I can only assume that was what the people here were referring to. It wasn't embarrassing, though. We never saw her do anything but come out of the lift.

Also, is there a particular order that the six movies should be viewed in?

 

[Pilot Ace]

Well, it was basically the same music for 4 seasons. Season 5 was a major change. That's what I was referring to.

A while back some people here referred to something embarrassing that Ivanova does. Some kind of dance or something? I never saw any kind of dance. She did come stumbling out of a....what's the equivalent of a turbo lift in B5? Well, she came out of one of those and there was a Drazi on the floor of it when she came out. I can only assume that was what the people here were referring to. It wasn't embarrassing, though. We never saw her do anything but come out of the lift.

Pretty sure that's the mating dance thing. Quick search tells me that was in "Acts of Sacrifice" in season 2.

 

[Hyperspace05]

Well, it was basically the same music for 4 seasons. Season 5 was a major change. That's what I was referring to.

Then you must have forgotten Season 3's theme music. Completely different theme but orchestrated in a similar fashion I suppose. (A reworked version of "Requiem for the line" from the season 1 episode "And the sky is full of stars")
Season 1: B5 theme
Season 2: B5 theme slightly tweaked
Season 3: Requiem for the Line
Season 4: B5 theme much tweaked
Season 5: Not sure what it is called.
This was done on purpose to give each season its own identity. I liked it that way. Waiting to see how the new season opening would be was part of the charm watching it at the time. (and nail baiting to see if it would be renewed each season)

 

[bintak]

I finally finished B5 today. A very heart tugging final episode. My overall take on the series is that it was a very good space opera. Though, it did not, in the overall, meet the expectations that had been set up for me by people here. It's not the best scifi show ever written, but it ranks high. I will say that it did have episodes that did meet that high expectation. Here's how I rank the seasons.

Maybe its not, but its close and it will be among the best American speculative fiction shows for a long time. It is very rich. You have to give it time to gnaw at you to understand it. Just a suggestion-grab a book on Jungian psychology, read that, and then watch it again.

3 Had several episodes that rank as excellent

This is the season that is the setup for the payoff which is in 4.

4 Very good story, but, afterward, I thought this battle with earth might've been better placed at the beginning of the series and then have the Shadow War afterward. I was a bit disappointed in how G'Kar really hated Londo and then seemed to change, almost overnight, into being able to smile and laugh with him. That seemed off.

Season 4 was rushed because the boot was in to cancel production. The story actually holds up better if you don't marathon watch it. Anyway the payoff is still great. You get both character and story. You don't know how rare that is in these days of garbage TV.

5 Some here have said that this season wasn't that good, so my expectations weren't very high, but it was a very good season.

Very uneven I found it. the highlights are the Centauri storyline. Still compared to some garbage like the Moore, Ron's Battlestar, its quality is very good.

2 The transition to Sheridan. The last 1/3 of it was very good.

I found this to be the weakest part of Babylon 5 as JMS had to bridge the changeover. The changeover from "Lurch" to "Scarecrow" was very awkward I thought.

1 Well, it's a first season like many. I thought it was average and I finally came around to liking Sinclair with his overly-dramatic acting and then he's gone.

I gritted my teeth through the first four episodes to get to the meat of the story. Awful to good that quick is very rare.

I do have some questions that I hope some of you can answer.

Is there a particular reason that we didn't have an episode where we saw the playing out of the scene where Londo and G'Kar are choking each other to death?

You missed this in Season 5? Its there played out as the Keeper finally kills Londo.

Was it always in the story that Sinclair would leave or was it a behind the scenes reason that he left?

Ratings:Michael O'Hare was too Michael Renneyn for PTEN. They needed a hero as series lead to bump the numbers up. Enter Bruce Boxleitner.

Why did the woman who played Ivanova leave at the end of season 4?

She was fired. Salary dispute.

In one of the DVD extras, they mention novels like a trilogy about Bester, some novels about Londo as Emperor. Without giving spoilers, what's the general consensus about the quality of the novels?

Excellent for the Psi Corps trilogy, Good for the Centauri Trilogy. The rest of them suck gopher gas.

Do we know if Emperor Vir had a "Keeper" attached to him in the final episode or are we to assume that 20 years later the Drak and the Keepers are gone?

The Drak are with us always. Vir had no Keeper.

Oh, and I was a bit disappointed they changed the theme music and opening sequence in season 5. What they changed it to was hokie and very much like an old 70s TV show. The original theme should've stayed.

The credits change with the year as a sort of way to mark chapters in the five year story.

By the way "Bintak" is the Narn name for their class of spacegoing battleship.

 

[Jan]

She was fired. Salary dispute.

She's admitted several times now that she quit. You can't fire somebody who had no contract. She failed to sign the option extension and then refused to sign the contract when it was offered.

Jan

 

[bintak]

She was fired. Salary dispute.

She's admitted several times now that she quit. You can't fire somebody who had no contract. She failed to sign the option extension and then refused to sign the contract when it was offered.

Jan

http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/misc/cc-leave.html

You can read it all, there.

In the end, she was fired.

B.

 

[Neroon]

No, you cannot conclude that from that bit on Lurker's. Claudia says she was fired. JMS says she passed. We will probably never know the full story, and I doubt that we really ought to know. In the end, you just have to leave it as one of those great, unexplained Babylonian mysteries.

 

[Angel4576]

Re: Finished Bablyon 5 for the first time

For those who haven't read it,the book tells the story of how Sinclair came to be Entil'Zha, how Marcus became a Ranger and what happened to Catherine Sakai.
I understand it's not as hard to obtain as some of the trilogies.

The only one of the novels that I've ever had a problem getting hold of is the conclusion to the Centauri trilogy, 'Out of the Darkness', which looks like it trades at around $80 at least. Fortunately, I got an e-copy of it.

The canonical novels are all very good IMO, and all add weight to what was seen onscreen. Amongst those, 'To Dream in the City of Sorrows' is arguably the best, it's a thoroughly fantastic read.