Final Ruling: Best Post-"Aliens" Franchise Sequel

[Timby]

Er, isn't that the whole point of the movie Prometheus? And how the Engineer reacts to Weyland's plea for "more life"?

It's always seemed clear to me that Scott intended for Prometheus and Covenant to be savage attacks on religiosity. But then, that could be my bias as an atheistic viewer.

Yes, Prometheus especially is about hubris and blinding yourself to reality because you think you're so close to something.

Shaw says it herself: "We were wrong, we were so wrong."

From something I wrote after seeing the movie for the first time:

I guess it boils down to what you're looking to get out of the film. It is such an unsettling film. I'm a huge fan of Ridley Scott but I don't think he's ever done anything of this magnitude. The attention to detail, as seen in Alien, and the relentlessness of the themes, as seen in Blade Runner, are there. I don't think Prometheus beats either of those films as Scott's "best," but it's definitely one of his smartest films.

Think of how you approached love, relationships, when you were young. You went all-in with this naive, idealistic sensibility, and then you get in over your head, and you wonder to yourself, "What the HELL have I done?" You try to do your best to carry on, soldier forward, and find some meaning in everything ... and, nope. Nothing.

Then you meet "God," your creator, the being responsible for your existence, and you ask God why everything is so incredibly messed up. And God ... gives you no answers, shows nothing but pure hatred and then sets out to express that hate upon your entire race and end it and it's incumbent upon you to prevent that disaster.

As pointed out, he didn't actually direct The Goonies or Poltergeist.

It has come out that Spielberg ghost-directed Poltergeist but Hooper got the credit, because Spielberg was under exclusive contract to Universal Pictures at the time.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

As far as the religious themes in Prometheus, I always felt that the key scene was that one where the guy absentmindedly says to David, "We made you because we could." Then David replies, "How disappointing would it be to hear that from your creator?" (Or something to that effect. I don't have the exact quote right now.) It seems that the main point of the movie is: There probably is no god, and if there is, he's a completely indifferent one.

It has come out that Spielberg ghost-directed Poltergeist but Hooper got the credit, because Spielberg was under exclusive contract to Universal Pictures at the time.

Yes, I'm well aware of the rather fraught behind-the-scenes set-up with Hooper & Spielberg. But it's not like Hooper was just some intern that could serve as a plausible alias for Spielberg. I think it was more a case of Spielberg coming up with a movie, farming it out to Hooper, but then Spielberg getting too precious about it and acting as a backseat director. IIRC, it wasn't a pleasant experience for either of the 2 men and Spielberg has said that he would never do that again. But the fact remains that Spielberg did not fully direct the movie, so I don't know that we can really count it as part of his directing filmography. (Although he has more of a claim to Poltergeist than he does to The Goonies.)

 

[JD]

(although still more watchable than Ridley Scott's Legend).

I really enjoyed Legend when I watched it a while back.

 

[Mage]

I really enjoyed Legend when I watched it a while back.

I count Legend as one of the best fantasy movies of the 80's really. Like Scott's the Duellists, it is such a simple story, but told in a very visually appealing way. Scott, like Lucas, uses visuals and imagery to tell his story. The big difference is, Scott is much better at working with actors, so he can tell his stories both through imagery AND people.

 

[JD]

I'll admit, some of his movies are a little slower moving than I like, but they are always gorgeous.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

I count Legend as one of the best fantasy movies of the 80's really. Like Scott's the Duelists, it is such a simple story, but told in a very visually appealing way. Scott, like Lucas, uses visuals and imagery to tell his story. The big difference is, Scott is much better at working with actors, so he can tell his stories both through imagery AND people.

I have to pretty vehemently disagree with a few of these points. Firstly, I CANNOT STAND Legend on a visual level. It's too dimly lit and a lot of it feels over-designed, especially the makeup on the dwarves, which gives them an exaggerated storybook illustration sort of look but is very off-putting in live action and the actors can't act very well through the prosthetics.

Secondly, if we're going to bring George Lucas into this, I would say that Lucas is a far better storyteller than Scott. Lucas fills his movies with all kinds of visual detail and builds an elaborate backstory for his worlds but then unceremoniously shoves all of that into the background to focus on the story he's actually telling. In Scott movies, I can never get over the feeling that he's pausing the story so that we can marvel at his production design. This is his crippling flaw in both Legend and Blade Runner. He barely gets away with it in Alien because, while he's showing off the sets, there's always the tease of there possibly being a monster lurking in the shadows. So an indulgent beauty shot of the Nostromo interior doubles for building tension.

Admittedly, I'm not a big fan of '80s fantasy movies overall. But I would probably count Legend as being my least favorite. It feels like it's trying to evoke a "generic storybook" feel rather than tell a specific story. (Disclaimer: I haven't seen The Dark Crystal but I'm told it has terrible pacing issues, so that might be worse.) Honestly, if I were going to pick a favorite, it would probably be Willow. I only just recently watched it for the first time and I thought it holds up pretty well compared to modern filmmaking standards.

 

[JD]

Dark Crystal is absolutely amazing, one of the most technically impressive movies ever, with a good story, and spectacular art design.

 

[JD]

So what are the poll results? I didn't vote since I haven't seen most of the movies, but I'm still curious what the results are.

 

[David cgc]

So what are the poll results? I didn't vote since I haven't seen most of the movies, but I'm still curious what the results are.

At this moment:

Spoiler: Results

Alien3
18 votes
47.4%

Prometheus
9 votes
23.7%

Alien Resurrection
8 votes
21.1%

Alien Covenant
3 votes
7.9%

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

Spoiler: Results

Interesting that, in both this thread and the Terminator thread, the 3rd movie is the clear winner, getting a majority or near-majority of all the votes. I guess, after the high bar set by the first 2 movies, they at least put some care into the 3rd one and TRIED not to screw it up. But once you screw it up once, I guess the fans never fully trust the franchise again.

 

[Mage]

I have to pretty vehemently disagree with a few of these points. Firstly, I CANNOT STAND Legend on a visual level. It's too dimly lit and a lot of it feels over-designed, especially the makeup on the dwarves, which gives them an exaggerated storybook illustration sort of look but is very off-putting in live action and the actors can't act very well through the prosthetics.

Secondly, if we're going to bring George Lucas into this, I would say that Lucas is a far better storyteller than Scott. Lucas fills his movies with all kinds of visual detail and builds an elaborate backstory for his worlds but then unceremoniously shoves all of that into the background to focus on the story he's actually telling. In Scott movies, I can never get over the feeling that he's pausing the story so that we can marvel at his production design. This is his crippling flaw in both Legend and Blade Runner. He barely gets away with it in Alien because, while he's showing off the sets, there's always the tease of there possibly being a monster lurking in the shadows. So an indulgent beauty shot of the Nostromo interior doubles for building tension.

Admittedly, I'm not a big fan of '80s fantasy movies overall. But I would probably count Legend as being my least favorite. It feels like it's trying to evoke a "generic storybook" feel rather than tell a specific story. (Disclaimer: I haven't seen The Dark Crystal but I'm told it has terrible pacing issues, so that might be worse.) Honestly, if I were going to pick a favorite, it would probably be Willow. I only just recently watched it for the first time and I thought it holds up pretty well compared to modern filmmaking standards.

I understand where you're coming from with your points on Scott. I suppose it's a matter of taste. With Lucas, especially during the prequels, it feels to me he's throwing so much into every SFX shot (and basically, that's what the prequels are, one long SFX shot) that the story he's trying to tell through his images gets lost in everything going on. Combined with the fact that Lucas can't direct actors, it gets muddled and distracting at times. While I feel that, yes, Scott does what you said, his pacing is at a level where you get to immerse yourself in the world that he has created. Combined with him being able to work with the actors, his stories are far more coherent worldbuilding.

Dark Chrystal being terribly paced..... It's been a while since I've seen it, so I might try and watch it this weekend and see what I feel.
Willow I will say, is absolutely one of the finest fantasty movies of the 80's, without a doubt.

 

[Anwar]

Dark Crystal doesn't have the deepest plot and at certain points it just seems to slow to a crawl once the two "leads" meet with each other to build up a connection between them. But it's a beautiful looking film.

 

[Vger23]

One of the things I could never get over in the Alien franchise was how, after Alien Resurrection, the incubation period for the alien embryo seemed to be reduced by about 75%. In the APV movies, it's basically an afterthought. Even in Prometheus and (especially) Covenant, it seems way too fast.

That kind of takes away from the horror and suspense of the creature's life cycle.

But hey...speed of plot I guess.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

In the AVP movies, I think that there's at least an implication that the Predators were pumping the Queen full of hormones that made the Aliens hatch faster so that the hunt could happen sooner.

Prometheus doesn't feature any actual traditional Xenomorphs, so who knows what the incubation period of those other breeds are supposed to be? And I suppose that you could make a similar argument for the prototype aliens that were the result of David's experiments in Alien Covenant.

 

[Tosk]

In the AVP movies, I think that there's at least an implication that the Predators were pumping the Queen full of hormones

When? Are we sure it's not just a post hoc excuse?

that made the Aliens hatch faster so that the hunt could happen sooner.

Why? Considering all the ritual surrounding the ancient hunts, what's the big rush?

 

[Gaith]

Even in Prometheus and (especially) Covenant, it seems way too fast. That kind of takes away from the horror and suspense of the creature's life cycle.

Yep, Covenant is as gloriously dumb as a Fast & Furious flick, and I mean that as high praise.

 

[theenglish]

Is it wrong that I like both Alien 3 and Ressurection more than Aliens, which I feel is one of the most overrated movies of all time?

I liked Alien 3 better than Aliens.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

Are we sure it's not just a post hoc excuse?

No, I'm not sure of that at all. It's been a while, so I can't recall what's established on screen, what's in official promotional interviews, and what's just pure fan speculation. But it's a pretty logical explanation given what already is established on screen.

 

[thribs]

Somewhere between Covenant and Resurrection for me. I found Alien3 to be boring.