Field Medic

[JB2005]

Ah but the point I was making was that if the character was a dud, it was their fault that she was a dud through their own lack of imagination. The concept was sound, the actress was good, but the writing was lacking.

By contrast, Seven, who had a clear progression and character arc, was handled the way Kes should have been, even if the romance element was forcing a square peg into a round hole towards the end of the show's run.

It's very careless to have a character who has roughly only 7 years to live and give her no clear arc. Having said that, because the writers and producers are well known to be sexist, part of their problem was that they didn't want to age Kes and turn their pretty actress into a middle-aged woman. I think the fact that Lien was starting to suffer an allergic reaction to the latex ears didn't help the character's chances either. Personally I think that Kes should have left half way through the season as part of Year of Hell and Kim should have left at some point after that after giving him some meatier stories to make actually care about him a bit more.

What those in charge of the show should have done was to give Kes a prolonged lifespan. That was possible according to the episode "Cold Fire".

In that way they could have solved the aging problem and got rid of the whole silly sever year lifespan thing.

I'm sure that it would have happened if Kes had stayed in the series.

I rather hope not, it would be such a contrivance, Kes, you were mortal but we have extended your lifespan through the magic of SCIENCE!!!!1!! Kes should have lived just long enough to see them reach Earth and died in the arms of whichever ship takes your fancy (K/7 Maybe?)

I'm also sure that Kes could have contributed a lot to the Voyager series if she had remained.

This. Harry contributed nothing and Garret Wang had given the producers enough reason to fire his ass as it was.

I don't want to dump Harry either. A weak character but still likeable in some way.

YMMV

 

[exodus]

^^Seeing as how the writers openly admitted they didn't want to write for a character like Kes anymore, I don't see them putting anymore effort into her if she stayed than they did with Harry.

What they did for Jen Lien is a good thing and they should have done it with Beltran too. If you aren't going to use a character, let that actor go. At least they can persue an acting job in a series or film that would actually use them instead of wasting their time, the set crews and ours. Why keep an actor on the payroll if you're not going to get the best out of them?

 

[Lynx]

They should have kept Kes. Period.

And they should have prolonged her lifespan too. The nine-year lifespan was silly.

 

[exodus]

They should have kept Kes. Period.

And they should have prolonged her lifespan too. The nine-year lifespan was silly.

I think the nine year life span is what made Kes, Kes.

She wouldn't of had the zest to learn, the wisdom or desires for adventure if she didn't have the mindset that she only had a short time to do it in. Knowing you only have a limited time to live makes one appreciate all that life has to offer IMO. Someone like Be'Lanna might not have the hang up's she does if she knew her life would be over in 9 years, for example.

Besides in all fairness, even if they did extend her life span.
It doesn't mean she still couldn't die.
Data could have lived forever, didn't stop them from blowing him up.
Kirk could have lived in bliss in the Nexus, they killed him off too.

 

[JB2005]

They should have kept Kes. Period.

And they should have prolonged her lifespan too. The nine-year lifespan was silly.

9 year life span was fine, maybe even too long - lets make it an even 7 =]

One child only was silly!

 

[Lynx]

They should have kept Kes. Period.

And they should have prolonged her lifespan too. The nine-year lifespan was silly.

I think the nine year life span is what made Kes, Kes.

She wouldn't of had the zest to learn, the wisdom or desires for adventure if she didn't have the mindset that she only had a short time to do it in. Knowing you only have a limited time to live makes one appreciate all that life has to offer IMO. Someone like Be'Lanna might not have the hang up's she does if she knew her life would be over in 9 years, for example.

Besides in all fairness, even if they did extend her life span.
It doesn't mean she still couldn't die.
Data could have lived forever, didn't stop them from blowing him up.
Kirk could have lived in bliss in the Nexus, they killed him off too.

They did give The Doctor that omitter which radically changed the premise for the character.

Geordi LaForge got rid of his visor which radically changed the premise for the character.

So why is it so impossible to prolong Kes's lifespan? She would still be the same character. I don't think that her curiosity and will to learn and explore would suffer from that. On the contrary, now she would know that she had more time and possibilities to learn and explore.

As for Kirk and Data, as you probably know, I strongly object to the killing off and destruction of those characters. One reason that I don't read TNG books either is that Data is missing.

And I strongly object against the annihilation of Janeway in the Voyager Relaunch books and the current "Death Trek" trend.

 

[JB2005]

They did give The Doctor that omitter which radically changed the premise for the character.

Actually it was a natural growth for his character, he was a piece of technology and he needed an outgrowth (plus it would have been shit if Picardo was stuck in sickbay for 7 years, keeping the most talented actor in the series on the same set is dumb any day of the week!

Geordi LaForge got rid of his visor which radically changed the premise for the character.

How? He had been captured and tortured, then his visor used to destroy the enterprise...seems perfectly natural to me he'd want to get rid of it!

So why is it so impossible to prolong Kes's lifespan? She would still be the same character. I don't think that her curiosity and will to learn and explore would suffer from that. On the contrary, now she would know that she had more time and possibilities to learn and explore.

Consider Kes as a lesson in the human condition. But condensed - she only has 6 years to live (every time i see an argument to extend her lifespan i cut it one year - new rule =]) and so we see her grow as a character.

Extend her lifespan she loses what makes her, her. For the same reason they didn't replace Geordi's visor with eyes (they made a point of showing us he still saw differently to everyone else) because that would take something away from the character, Kes's lifespan should not be removed.

Imagine they'd introduced the character of Kes as a human starfleet/civilian officer with cancer and she was going to die in 6 years...and then at the end of those 6 years where the character had come to terms with her mortality, and we as an audience had become invested in this character as she was, they announced "HEY GUYZ GESS WUT, WE HAZ A CURE 4 CANCER!!!1!!" That would just do the characer a disservice IMHO.

As for Kirk and Data, as you probably know, I strongly object to the killing off and destruction of those characters. One reason that I don't read TNG books either is that Data is missing.

Meh you're cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Kirk's death was fairly pointless I grant you, but consider this - at the start of the film he's feeling unhappy - he's having to watch a new captain on the enterprise - his ship - and he gets one last chance and dies *saving the enterprise* (and alone)

now he's in the Nexus (read:heaven) and someone comes to him and says (among other things) The Enterprise is in danger. and kirk says (eventually) the enterprise? So retakes mortal form to save the enterprise, which he does and that task accomplished, dies again for good this time.

As for Data dying, "My Greatest Wish is to be human" Now in my opinion the greatest symbol that Data was human was not:

• Having Sex
• Measure of a man
• Getting Emotions (you want to discuss crimes against characters, giving him the emotion chip in Generations. Let Data be Data! Maybee he doesn't have human emotions...so what? he has android emotions and they kick ass!)

Data was human because he had friends who he would do anything for. Consider:

• In Generations he failed to save Geordi, which clearly affected him.
• In Measure of a Man Picard argues to save him and
• Riker prosecutes in order to give him a fighting chance
• Deanna helped him with his emotions and helped him grow into the person he became.
• Worf taught him about honour and duty and saved his life on countless occassions
• Beverly taught him to dance, defied orders in Descent in order to keep the Enterprise close when he was in trouble

And so on...Data felt he owed them, and Shinzon was about to kill at least Picard, and if he failed they would all die. But the Pulse would only kill Organic matter, Data would not have been affected, he would have to watch his friends (read: family) turn to stone and die, knowing that he alone could have saved them, so instead of doing that he took the only option he could: he went over to the Scimitar, sent Picard (read: Surrogate father) to safety and didn't even hesitate before destroying the scimitar and saving his friends. That was the pay-off of the last 15 years. Data had all his friends around him and learned that the thing about being human is that if all your friends are about to die, you don't let it happen.

But you'd rather Data hadn't died? Fine. But Nemesis still happens. Data lives but everyone else in TNG turns to stone.

And I strongly object against the annihilation of Janeway in the Voyager Relaunch books and the current "Death Trek" trend.

[sarcasm] Really? [/sarcasm]

Janeways death (as I have argued before, but will do so again, because hey why not?) was Karma!

In Trek, the universe demands a price for everything:

• In TSSFS (Star Trek 3) Spock was brought back to life, but David and the Enterprise had to die in order to "Pay the Price"
  
• In TVH (in the novelverse at least) the Earth was saved, but Kenneth Westcot (the President) ultimately died, had he simply evacuated Earth this would not have happened.
  
• In the All Good Things alternate future, Deanna is dead and Data is alive. When that future is undone, one of them still has to die...
  
• When Future Janeway travelled back in time, she saved 22 crewmembers. She died for mucking up the timeline (and the trillions of people this affected) and our-Janeway died for destroying the hub (which brought the borg down on the Feds - you don't like the death toll in Trek Lit of late? Blame Janeway!)

 

[Lynx]

Actually it was a natural growth for his character, he was a piece of technology and he needed an outgrowth (plus it would have been shit if Picardo was stuck in sickbay for 7 years, keeping the most talented actor in the series on the same set is dumb any day of the week!

If that radical change of the character's premise was "natural growth" (with which I dissagre since the emitter was found by coincident, not by any long-term development), then a prolonging of Kes's life-span would be seen as "natural growth" too.

How? He had been captured and tortured, then his visor used to destroy the enterprise...seems perfectly natural to me he'd want to get rid of it!

So what? The premise for the character was radically changed as well. It doesnt matter if the character wanted the visor or not, what matter is that those in charge of the show altered something important to the character. It can be called "growth" and development as well but in that case a prolonging of Kes's lifespan would be plausible too.

But condensed - she only has 6 years to live (every time i see an argument to extend her lifespan i cut it one year - new rule =]) and so we see her grow as a character.

That looks like a childish game to me and I'm not interested in childish games. And please don't call character annihilation "growth" in any way.

Extend her lifespan she loses what makes her, her. For the same reason they didn't replace Geordi's visor with eyes (they made a point of showing us he still saw differently to everyone else) because that would take something away from the character, Kes's lifespan should not be removed.

Imagine they'd introduced the character of Kes as a human starfleet/civilian officer with cancer and she was going to die in 6 years...and then at the end of those 6 years where the character had come to terms with her mortality, and we as an audience had become invested in this character as she was, they announced "HEY GUYZ GESS WUT, WE HAZ A CURE 4 CANCER!!!1!!" That would just do the characer a disservice IMHO.

In that case, giving The Doctor that emitter was making The Doctor lose what was really him. In fact, he became just a more sofisticated version of Data.

The same for LaForge, removing the visor turned him just into another Starfleet character. OK, that's fine with me in both cases but in that case, Kes's lifespan could be prolonged too.

How can you compare a certain lifespan with cancer? Makes no sense to me. Besides that, I see no reason why a character with a serious disease could not be cured. In fact, it has happened a lot of time in Star Trek.

If Janeway and Paris could be turned into lizards and then reverted back to what they were without problems and if Torres could be split in two and restored back to normal, then I see no reason why it wouldn't be possible to give Kes a prolonged lifespan, especially since it was possible according to the episode "Cold Fire".

Kirk's death was fairly pointless I grant you, but consider this - at the start of the film he's feeling unhappy - he's having to watch a new captain on the enterprise - his ship - and he gets one last chance and dies *saving the enterprise* (and alone)

now he's in the Nexus (read:heaven) and someone comes to him and says (among other things) The Enterprise is in danger. and kirk says (eventually) the enterprise? So retakes mortal form to save the enterprise, which he does and that task accomplished, dies again for good this time.

They could have spared us from that crappy character destruction in what could have been a great movie. TOS was a great series. Why can't they let it rest in peace instead of ruining those characters.

But you'd rather Data hadn't died? Fine. But Nemesis still happens. Data lives but everyone else in TNG turns to stone.

The could have written the whole scenario different. Data wouldn't have to die to stop Shinzon. Not to mention that Data could have been restored by implanting his memory into that other android.

Not to mention that the movie shouldn't have been made at all!

Janeways death (as I have argued before, but will do so again, because hey why not?) was Karma!

In Trek, the universe demands a price for everything:

• In TSSFS (Star Trek 3) Spock was brought back to life, but David and the Enterprise had to die in order to "Pay the Price"
• In TVH (in the novelverse at least) the Earth was saved, but Kenneth Westcot (the President) ultimately died, had he simply evacuated Earth this would not have happened.
• In the All Good Things alternate future, Deanna is dead and Data is alive. When that future is undone, one of them still has to die...
• When Future Janeway travelled back in time, she saved 22 crewmembers. She died for mucking up the timeline (and the trillions of people this affected) and our-Janeway died for destroying the hub (which brought the borg down on the Feds - you don't like the death toll in Trek Lit of late? Blame Janeway!)

Please spare me from that karma superstitious rubbish. Every day I see people who should have been dead a long time ago due to their actions in life and they live, prosper and continue to mistreat people.

They simply don't have to write stories that way.

And no, I can't and I wont blame the character Janeway for what ignorant writers make up to create "sensations".

Not to mention that all of those who praise Janeway's death in the books seem to be those who disliked Janeway and Voyager in the first place. Plus the fact that every time a prolonging of Kes's lifespan comes up, those who most vehemently defend the nine-year lifespan and a possible death of the character are the same people who several times have expressed their dislike of the character. Curious!

 

[JB2005]

Actually it was a natural growth for his character, he was a piece of technology and he needed an outgrowth (plus it would have been shit if Picardo was stuck in sickbay for 7 years, keeping the most talented actor in the series on the same set is dumb any day of the week!

If that radical change of the character's premise was "natural growth" (with which I dissagre since the emitter was found by coincident, not by any long-term development), then a prolonging of Kes's life-span would be seen as "natural growth" too.

But you could argue the emitter was long-term developement. It was just done badly.

He started off as nothing and had to grow, but as a hologram his ability to grow is potentially without limit.

With Kes, her limit is the 9 years life span, and her growth should have been within these boundaries. If you extend her lifespan then she's just a Betazoid, and I for one think Voy was enough of a TNG clone that we didn't need another Troi, thankyou very much!

How? He had been captured and tortured, then his visor used to destroy the enterprise...seems perfectly natural to me he'd want to get rid of it!

So what? The premise for the character was radically changed as well. It doesnt matter if the character wanted the visor or not, what matter is that those in charge of the show altered something important to the character. It can be called "growth" and development as well but in that case a prolonging of Kes's lifespan would be plausible too.

"So What?" In Season 2 it was established that Geordi's use of the VISOR was that character's choice the implants we see in FC had been offered to him but he'd turned them down. It wasn't a case of radically changing the character or even throwing something new into the mix, it was simply natural evolution following the events of Generations.

That looks like a childish game to me and I'm not interested in childish games. And please don't call character annihilation "growth" in any way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feYRiwkUzww

And i'm not calling character annihilation growth, you're calling growth character annihilation....

In that case, giving The Doctor that emitter was making The Doctor lose what was really him. In fact, he became just a more sofisticated version of Data.

Err no.

Data wanted to be human, he was always wanting to better himself, but within the context of that wish.

The Doc wanted to be respected for what he was he wanted to become a respected hologram. At the same time he wanted to explore existence in terms of being a hologram. He didn't show any wish to eat or drink until Body and Soul and never did so again, (read a Hologram's Handbook if you want to explore the difference between the Doctor and Data, it sheds a lot of light on the backstory Picardo had for him)

The same for LaForge, removing the visor turned him just into another Starfleet character. OK, that's fine with me in both cases but in that case, Kes's lifespan could be prolonged too.

La Forge never wasn't another Starfleet Character. Being blind didn't change that at all. He didn't stop being blind, he just changed the way he was able to perceive.

How can you compare a certain lifespan with cancer? Makes no sense to me. Besides that, I see no reason why a character with a serious disease could not be cured. In fact, it has happened a lot of time in Star Trek.

"I'm sorry, you only have 9 years to live, there's nothing we can do"

and yeah it happened a lot in Trek, god bless the almighty reset button at the end of the episode. But Kes's lifespan would have been a continuing issue throughout the series. Then we get to Endgame and she's lying on her deathbed, having spent the series growing as a character, having lived life to the full and done everything she wanted, with no regrets. Then suddenly she finds out she's got another 80 or 90 years to live...so we have 80 or 90 years of boring Betazoid Kes.

If Janeway and Paris could be turned into lizards and then reverted back to what they were without problems and if Torres could be split in two and restored back to normal, then I see no reason why it wouldn't be possible to give Kes a prolonged lifespan, especially since it was possible according to the episode "Cold Fire".

Yes we could have recalibrated the bullshit bullshit, but see my answers above.

They could have spared us from that crappy character destruction in what could have been a great movie. TOS was a great series. Why can't they let it rest in peace instead of ruining those characters.

How did they ruin those characters?

JB: Kirk died saving the Enterprise, twice.
Lynx: You monster you ruined the character of Kirk!

JB: Kirk died alone (ie apart from Spock and McCoy)
Lynx: You monster, you ruined the character of Kirk!

How is anything in Generations character destruction? They basically elevate Kirk's status to Messianic, complete with a second coming.

But you'd rather Data hadn't died? Fine. But Nemesis still happens. Data lives but everyone else in TNG turns to stone.

The could have written the whole scenario different. Data wouldn't have to die to stop Shinzon. Not to mention that Data could have been restored by implanting his memory into that other android.

They could. But why would they want to? Read all the stuff I wrote about Data's growth and that's why it's a logical end.

And as for the B4 thing, imagine this conversation in Trek:

NEELIX: Oh why, oh why did Kes have to die?
DOC: Stop mournfully rhyming Mr Neelix, I have a solution.
NEELIX: Go on...
DOC: It turns out that Kes has a retarded older sibling. Now we've only just introduced her as a character, and she's retarded! Plus she looks exactly like Kes! Let's scoop out her brains and put Kes's in...
THE ENTIRE AUDIENCE: Good God You Monster!!!!
JANEWAY: Do it! Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to go split a crewman in two.

Not to mention that the movie shouldn't have been made at all!

Meh. Should have had a good director and Stewart should have played shinzon. Then it's a good film.

Janeways death (as I have argued before, but will do so again, because hey why not?) was Karma!

In Trek, the universe demands a price for everything:

• In TSSFS (Star Trek 3) Spock was brought back to life, but David and the Enterprise had to die in order to "Pay the Price"
• In TVH (in the novelverse at least) the Earth was saved, but Kenneth Westcot (the President) ultimately died, had he simply evacuated Earth this would not have happened.
• In the All Good Things alternate future, Deanna is dead and Data is alive. When that future is undone, one of them still has to die...
• When Future Janeway travelled back in time, she saved 22 crewmembers. She died for mucking up the timeline (and the trillions of people this affected) and our-Janeway died for destroying the hub (which brought the borg down on the Feds - you don't like the death toll in Trek Lit of late? Blame Janeway!)

Please spare me from that karma superstitious rubbish. Every day I see people who should have been dead a long time ago due to their actions in life and they live, prosper and continue to mistreat people.

I'm gonna repeat: In the Trek Universe. You do not live in the Trek Universe therefore the Laws of Karmic justice do not apply!

They simply don't have to write stories that way.

No, they don't have to write stories that dare to do things other than push magic reset buttons at the end. But they do and I for one will continue to read them (and the fan base is with me or the books wouldn't continue to be bought)

And no, I can't and I wont blame the character Janeway for what ignorant writers make up to create "sensations".

Err...how is anything I said inaccurate? Janeway destroyed the borg hub so the borg saw the Feds as a threat, so came down like all hell on them. If Janeway hadn't, the Borg would have stayed in the DQ.

Not to mention that all of those who praise Janeway's death in the book
s seem to be those who disliked Janeway and Voyager in the first place. Plus the fact that every time a prolonging of Kes's lifespan comes up, those who most vehemently defend the nine-year lifespan and a possible death of the character are the same people who several times have expressed their dislike of the character. Curious!

For the record every time the Kes v Harry debate comes up I argue in favour of Kes. Voyager was always my favourite series and I think the character of Janeway was at times written very well (and at times written like a psychopath, but I blame the writers for this, and if you think I'm being unfair Mulgrew thinks Janeway came off as psycho at times, so make of that what you will). Was I happy Janeway died? No! Of course not! I don't think Before Dishonour is at all a well written book. I think the premise is good, but it was executed badly (pun intended).

Full Circle however is a masterpiece. I felt for the first time that I was reading a book that didn't want to do a hatchet job on Janeway, and instead treated her with compassion.

Read it Lynx, seriously read it. You'll like it!

Plus Kes might not be dead yet...admittedly she'd be 12 or 13 by this point...but you never know...the Voyager is back in the DQ and they might swing by Ocampa at some point and find she's still there, old but ready for another adventure. After all she did ascend into a state of pure energy, who knows what effect that will have?

 

[Lynx]

But you could argue the emitter was long-term developement. It was just done badly.

He started off as nothing and had to grow, but as a hologram his ability to grow is potentially without limit.

With Kes, her limit is the 9 years life span, and her growth should have been within these boundaries. If you extend her lifespan then she's just a Betazoid, and I for one think Voy was enough of a TNG clone that we didn't need another Troi, thankyou very much!

I see no development in the emitter, just a radical change of the character's premise.

I can't see why Kes should be "just another Betazoid". Even with a prolonged lifespan, Kes was a different character from Troi. And if I have to choose, I prefer a living Betazoid copy to a dying corpse.

"So What?" In Season 2 it was established that Geordi's use of the VISOR was that character's choice the implants we see in FC had been offered to him but he'd turned them down. It wasn't a case of radically changing the character or even throwing something new into the mix, it was simply natural evolution following the events of Generations.

Still, it was a radical change from the original premise of the character.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feYRiwkUzww

And i'm not calling character annihilation growth, you're calling growth character annihilation....

The youtube link didn't say anything.

And I'm against "growth" when it ruins certain characters.

However, a prolonging of Kes's lifespan could be called growth if anything.

Err no.

Data wanted to be human, he was always wanting to better himself, but within the context of that wish.

The Doc wanted to be respected for what he was he wanted to become a respected hologram. At the same time he wanted to explore existence in terms of being a hologram. He didn't show any wish to eat or drink until Body and Soul and never did so again, (read a Hologram's Handbook if you want to explore the difference between the Doctor and Data, it sheds a lot of light on the backstory Picardo had for him)

La Forge never wasn't another Starfleet Character. Being blind didn't change that at all. He didn't stop being blind, he just changed the way he was able to perceive.

Still, it's a radical change of the premises for the characters and if those changes are acceptable and even seen as progress and growth for the character, then a prolonging of Kes's lifespan should be seen as progress and growth as well.

"I'm sorry, you only have 9 years to live, there's nothing we can do"

and yeah it happened a lot in Trek, god bless the almighty reset button at the end of the episode. But Kes's lifespan would have been a continuing issue throughout the series. Then we get to Endgame and she's lying on her deathbed, having spent the series growing as a character, having lived life to the full and done everything she wanted, with no regrets. Then suddenly she finds out she's got another 80 or 90 years to live...so we have 80 or 90 years of boring Betazoid Kes.

As I wrote before, I prefer a Betazoid copy to a dying corpse. Besides that, Kes would never be boring, not with her personality, which I see as the most important with the character.

Not to mention that a prolonging of her lifespan could already have occured in season 4, 5 or even before that.

As a matter of fact, it took me 30 seconds to do away with the nine year lifespan and two minutes to do away with the crap in "Fury".

How did they ruin those characters?

JB: Kirk died saving the Enterprise, twice.
Lynx: You monster you ruined the character of Kirk!

JB: Kirk died alone (ie apart from Spock and McCoy)
Lynx: You monster, you ruined the character of Kirk!

How is anything in Generations character destruction? They basically elevate Kirk's status to Messianic, complete with a second coming.

They ruined Kirk by killing him off in that movie. They should have left Kirk and TOS alone. It was a good series and let us remember it that way.

And as for the B4 thing, imagine this conversation in Trek:

NEELIX: Oh why, oh why did Kes have to die?
DOC: Stop mournfully rhyming Mr Neelix, I have a solution.
NEELIX: Go on...
DOC: It turns out that Kes has a retarded older sibling. Now we've only just introduced her as a character, and she's retarded! Plus she looks exactly like Kes! Let's scoop out her brains and put Kes's in...
THE ENTIRE AUDIENCE: Good God You Monster!!!!
JANEWAY: Do it! Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to go split a crewman in two.

You can't be serious when you compare Kes with an android. There was a possibility to re-create Data by putting his memory into B4, something which could never be achieved with a humanoid. On the other hand, Spock's return in ST III was similar to that solution but I guess that it was only a possible solution for Spock because Spock is Spock and killing him off would have killed the TOS relaunch in the movies. (Not that I disagree, I like Spock and I'm happy that they did bring him back.)

No, they don't have to write stories that dare to do things other than push magic reset buttons at the end. But they do and I for one will continue to read them (and the fan base is with me or the books wouldn't continue to be bought).

Well, enjoy "Death Trek" as long as it will be published. But don't state that "the fan base is behind you". There are a lot of true fans who turn their backs to those books.

Full Circle however is a masterpiece. I felt for the first time that I was reading a book that didn't want to do a hatchet job on Janeway, and instead treated her with compassion.

Read it Lynx, seriously read it. You'll like it!

Like it? Like to see Janeway being wasted in the same way they wasted Kes in "Fury" (which made me finally stop watching Voyager). No way! I rather slit my throat or be bored to death watching the next episode of "Stargate Universe". That's the lesser evil than seeing another favorite character being annihilated.

Plus Kes might not be dead yet...admittedly she'd be 12 or 13 by this point...but you never know...the Voyager is back in the DQ and they might swing by Ocampa at some point and find she's still there, old but ready for another adventure. After all she did ascend into a state of pure energy, who knows what effect that will have?

If I do have one remaining hope and any wish for the "Voyager Relaunch", then I really hope and wish that the Ocampa and Kes never will be mentioned in those books. Because when it comes to the current direction of those stories, then I can only expect the worse.

But you're right about one thing: The adventures aren't over for Our Favorite Ocampa.
http://lynx677.110mb.com/Kesstories.html

 

[JB2005]

But you could argue the emitter was long-term developement. It was just done badly.

He started off as nothing and had to grow, but as a hologram his ability to grow is potentially without limit.

With Kes, her limit is the 9 years life span, and her growth should have been within these boundaries. If you extend her lifespan then she's just a Betazoid, and I for one think Voy was enough of a TNG clone that we didn't need another Troi, thankyou very much!

I see no development in the emitter, just a radical change of the character's premise.

I can't see why Kes should be "just another Betazoid". Even with a prolonged lifespan, Kes was a different character from Troi. And if I have to choose, I prefer a living Betazoid copy to a dying corpse.

Okaay...Season 1 - the Doc is introduced and we see him grow from being an "Emergency Medical Hologram" to becoming an accepted member of the crew. At the end of Season 1 we learn that in his subconscious he yearns to be free of sickbay to explore the rest of the ship (See Projections)

Season 2 the growth continues, to the point where in Basics he is integral in leading the resistance (admittedly only him and Suder) against the Kazon. In addition he learns about his own mortality and limitations when Seska destroys the sickbay's holographic interface.

Season 3 he faces his mortality again when he nearly decompiles and he gains the emitter. From there the growth he was going through before continues. The appeal of the doctor is his growth as a person, the emitter is a part of that growth, but his entire existence is not defined specifically around the fact that he cannot leave Sickbay. He can go anywhere with holo-emitters, he never loses that crutch, he merely gets a more mobile alternative (similar to Geordi, he never regains his sight, he just changes the way in which he percieves).

Compare that to Kes. If you extend her lifespan then the premise of the character will fundamentally changed. Geordi and the Doctor will forever have the restraint of their crutches. Kes will not, and thus her character will not be defined around her lifespan, but rather around her telepathy - ie making her another Betazoid.

Also, corpses are dead, it's a very specific life-state. You can't have a dying corpse.

"So What?" In Season 2 it was established that Geordi's use of the VISOR was that character's choice the implants we see in FC had been offered to him but he'd turned them down. It wasn't a case of radically changing the character or even throwing something new into the mix, it was simply natural evolution following the events of Generations.

Still, it was a radical change from the original premise of the character.

The original premise of the character was: "This Guy's blind"

The switching of the VISOR for implants meant he went from, blind to...blind.

The youtube link didn't say anything.

You said it seemed like a childish game. Dukat agrees with you.

And I'm against "growth" when it ruins certain characters.

However, a prolonging of Kes's lifespan could be called growth if anything.

That's where we disagree. There is plenty of story in a character accepting his limitations and living within them. For example. The Doctor can only regenerate 12 times. He's currently on his 10th regeneration (11th incarnation), so in 2 more Doctors he'll reach the end of his life span.

Now, I thoroughly expect that at that point the writers will invoke the bullshit bullshit and he'll regenerate. In my opinion that's a cop out, but less so than Kes for this reason:

The Doctor was not introduced with the fact he could only regenerate 12 times (that came later)
It is not frequently mentioned in the series
It is a characteristic, but it does not define him (unlike Kes, who's whole premise revolves around the fact she can only live 9 years)

Still, it's a radical change of the premises for the characters and if those changes are acceptable and even seen as progress and growth for the character, then a prolonging of Kes's lifespan should be seen as progress and growth as well.

See above.

As I wrote before, I prefer a Betazoid copy to a dying corpse. Besides that, Kes would never be boring, not with her personality, which I see as the most important with the character.

Define her personality, I would say she is:

Compassionate
Inquisitive
Resourceful
Strong-willed
Loyal

Now, I agree her personality makes her a compelling character. She certainly wasn't black and white, but how much of that came from the very real face of her mortality. She lives only 9 years, so in that time she wants to see a lot, and her mortality drives her inquisitiveness (Quote: If I was Captain Janeway I'd open up every crack in the universe and peer inside - or something similar) now, given her 9 year life span it's unlikely she'll have many second chances to explore, so she's going to take advantage of the opportunities to. If she could extend her lifespan, then potentially she could make herself immortal that which is driving her most will have been removed.

Not to mention that a prolonging of her lifespan could already have occured in season 4, 5 or even before that.

In which case we spent 4 or 5 years (100 episodes, more than half the series) dealing with the premise that she's got a limited lifespan, the writers, directors, producers, fans and Lien herself all perceiving the character with this in mind, then in one episode it's decided "Kes - you're going to live 100 years"

As a matter of fact, it took me 30 seconds to do away with the nine year lifespan and two minutes to do away with the crap in "Fury".

Good for you.

They ruined Kirk by killing him off in that movie. They should have left Kirk and TOS alone. It was a good series and let us remember it that way.

They didn't ruin Kirk, they ended his story. Kirk was never going to go quietly in the night. He was going to die alone (read: without Spock and McCoy) and he did that.

Kirk died on the Enterprise B. But for the bullshit bullshit he was dead. So Kirk died saving the Enterprise and he went to heaven (the Nexus) then 80 years later another Enterprise was in trouble, and the Captain of the Enterprise comes to Kirk and tells him that he is needed, yes innocent lives need saving, but the Enterprise is in danger. So Kirk foresakes paradise in order to retake mortal form and defend the Enterprise one more time.

But Kirk didn't need to survive this encounter. He'd already died saving the Enterprise, and whilst on Viridian III he symbolically passed the torch onto his successor.

When he told Picard to Call him Jim he was doing two things:

He was acknowledging Picard as an equal, allowing him to use his nickname in place of the honorific.
Up until that point Picard had been refering to him as "Captain" by telling Picard not to call him Captain anymore, he was acknowledging that was no longer who he was. Thus he could die, having saved the Enterprise and accepted he was no longer the Captain.

You can't be serious when you compare Kes with an android.

You racist! As of Measure of a Man, an android is viewed under Federation Law as having equal rights and protections as a humanoid (ie Kes) therefore replacing B4's personality with Data's would be equivalent to replacing a retarded Ocompan's with Kes's (see the ethical dilemma presented in X-3)

There was a possibility to re-create Data by putting his memory into B4, something which could never be achieved with a humanoid.

Sure it could. Ira Grave's techinique has had a decade to be studied and improved upon. Hell in TOS they swapped bodies all the time. It's perfectly possible, it's just an ethical no-no.

On the other hand, Spock's return in ST III was similar to that solution but I guess that it was only a possible solution for Spock because Spock is Spock and killing him off would have killed the TOS relaunch in the movies. (Not that I disagree, I like Spock and I'm happy that they did bring him back.)

All they did in ST3 was take Spock's mind and put it back in Spock's body. It's exactly the same premise as Spock's Brain in TOS and with the same lack of a moral dilemma.

Well, enjoy "Death Trek" as long as it will be published. But don't state that "the fan base is behind you". There are a lot of true fans who turn their backs to those books.

No there aren't. The BBS does not reflect the "true fans" it reflects some of them certainly, but only a few. The majority of fans will never even be aware of this place (I only stumbled upon it by accident) and so even though we have raging debates, they could well be incidental in terms of the bigger picture.

And besides. The books have continued like this in a recession under a series of editors. This wouldn't happen unless they were a money maker.

Full Circle however is a masterpiece. I felt for the first time that I was reading a book that didn't want to do a hatchet job on Janeway, and instead treated her with compassion.

Read it Lynx, seriously read it. You'll like it!

Like it? Like to see Janeway being wasted in the same way they wasted Kes in "Fury" (which made me finally stop watching Voyager). No way! I rather slit my throat or be bored to death watching the next episode of "Stargate Universe". That's the lesser evil than seeing another favorite character being annihilated.

Janeway isn't wasted! I don't know why, you stike me as a C/J shipper like me, in which case you'll enjoy the book. And when you find out Janeway dies, you'll be angry, you'll shout it's not fair, you may throw book across the room and cry (I did some of these) and do you know what made me do it? Good writing. Kristen Beyer has written the finest Voyager book (if not the finest Trek book) in years. She made me care that much about the death of Janeway, because you know what? It's not fair. It's not right. It's not just. And it shouldn't have happened. And the book states that. The book explores that. And the characters feel the same way and they reluctantly begin to come to terms with it. But they don't like it and nor should they.

The point is, the death is dealt with in a mature way and Voyager is stronger for it.

Janeway isn't annihilated, we see her at her best and then we feel emotion for her dying. Could there be stories where she doesn't die? Of course! But that's not what happens, so we have to go with it.

Plus Kes might not be dead yet...admittedly she'd be 12 or 13 by this point...but you never know...the Voyager is back in the DQ and they might swing by Ocampa at some point and find she's still there, old but ready for another adventure. After all she did ascend into a state of pure energy, who knows what effect that will have?

If I do have one remaining hope and any wish for the "Voyager Relaunch", then I really hope and wish that the Ocampa and Kes never will be mentioned in those books. Because when it comes to the current direction of those stories, then I can only expect the worse.

The relaunch is spectacular. The crew is an ensemble for the first time, the premise has altered but it no longer feels like a TNG clone. Expect what you like, but I have a feeling if Ms Beyer deals with Ocampa it will be compelling and I will run to the forum and say "Lynx, Lynx you have got to read this book!

But you're right about one thing: The adventures aren't over for Our Favorite Ocampa.
http://lynx677.110mb.com/Kesstories.html

[/QUOTE]

No offence, I'm sure it's great but personally I don't read fan fic. It may sound arbitrary, but to me the Trek I enjoy is that which is in the novels. I need my Trek to conform to some sort of logic, and fan fic unfortunately does not always do this, whereas the Novelverse as it now stands does!

 

[Lynx]

This has turned into an intersting debate!

Okaay...Season 1 - the Doc is introduced and we see him grow from being an "Emergency Medical Hologram" to becoming an accepted member of the crew. At the end of Season 1 we learn that in his subconscious he yearns to be free of sickbay to explore the rest of the ship (See Projections)

Season 2 the growth continues, to the point where in Basics he is integral in leading the resistance (admittedly only him and Suder) against the Kazon. In addition he learns about his own mortality and limitations when Seska destroys the sickbay's holographic interface.

Season 3 he faces his mortality again when he nearly decompiles and he gains the emitter. From there the growth he was going through before continues. The appeal of the doctor is his growth as a person, the emitter is a part of that growth, but his entire existence is not defined specifically around the fact that he cannot leave Sickbay. He can go anywhere with holo-emitters, he never loses that crutch, he merely gets a more mobile alternative (similar to Geordi, he never regains his sight, he just changes the way in which he percieves).

Compare that to Kes. If you extend her lifespan then the premise of the character will fundamentally changed. Geordi and the Doctor will forever have the restraint of their crutches. Kes will not, and thus her character will not be defined around her lifespan, but rather around her telepathy - ie making her another Betazoid.

Also, corpses are dead, it's a very specific life-state. You can't have a dying corpse.

You're right about that corpses are dead. "Dying corpse" was simply a badly choice of words from me.

But I still prefer a living Betazoid to someone slowly dying and all that melodramatic rubbish that follows with it.

I have no problems with The Doctor's emitter or Geordis new pair of eyes but I still think it changed the original premise of those characters dramatically and I see no reason why Kes couldn't have a prolonged lifespan, especially since it was stated that it was possible ("Cold Fire").

That's where we disagree. There is plenty of story in a character accepting his limitations and living within them. For example. The Doctor can only regenerate 12 times. He's currently on his 10th regeneration (11th incarnation), so in 2 more Doctors he'll reach the end of his life span.

Now, I thoroughly expect that at that point the writers will invoke the bullshit bullshit and he'll regenerate. In my opinion that's a cop out, but less so than Kes for this reason:

The Doctor was not introduced with the fact he could only regenerate 12 times (that came later)
It is not frequently mentioned in the series
It is a characteristic, but it does not define him (unlike Kes, who's whole premise revolves around the fact she can only live 9 years)

In which episode or book was it tated that The Doctor could only re-generate 12 times. I can't remember seeing it anywhere.

In fact, it looks like something totally unnecessarily which was throwed in to create more melodrama.

Define her personality, I would say she is:

Compassionate
Inquisitive
Resourceful
Strong-willed
Loyal

Now, I agree her personality makes her a compelling character. She certainly wasn't black and white, but how much of that came from the very real face of her mortality. She lives only 9 years, so in that time she wants to see a lot, and her mortality drives her inquisitiveness (Quote: If I was Captain Janeway I'd open up every crack in the universe and peer inside - or something similar) now, given her 9 year life span it's unlikely she'll have many second chances to explore, so she's going to take advantage of the opportunities to. If she could extend her lifespan, then potentially she could make herself immortal that which is driving her most will have been removed.

I don't think so. Kes would have been the same even if she had had a lifespan of a Vulcan. She's a born explorer.

You racist! As of Measure of a Man, an android is viewed under Federation Law as having equal rights and protections as a humanoid (ie Kes) therefore replacing B4's personality with Data's would be equivalent to replacing a retarded Ocompan's with Kes's (see the ethical dilemma presented in X-3)

Please don't call me racist! It's actually an insulting remark.

Even if I do respect the androids rights in this matter, we still have to realize that androids do differ from humans in certain aspects. Therefore I see no reason why Data couldn't be saved the way I suggested. On the other hand, I do find it totally unnecessary and rude to kill him off in the first place. TNG is dead without Data. Fortunately there are old episodes to watch and old books to read.

All they did in ST3 was take Spock's mind and put it back in Spock's body. It's exactly the same premise as Spock's Brain in TOS and with the same lack of a moral dilemma.

Not exactly. What they did was to put Spock's mind and put it into a copy of Spock's body (which is almost the same as my suggestion for the restration of Data).

And besides. The books have continued like this in a recession under a series of editors. This wouldn't happen unless they were a money maker.

Perhaps. But consider how much money they lose when long-time fans like me abandon those books.

Janeway isn't wasted! I don't know why, you stike me as a C/J shipper like me, in which case you'll enjoy the book. And when you find out Janeway dies, you'll be angry, you'll shout it's not fair, you may throw book across the room and cry (I did some of these) and do you know what made me do it? Good writing. Kristen Beyer has written the finest Voyager book (if not the finest Trek book) in years. She made me care that much about the death of Janeway, because you know what? It's not fair. It's not right. It's not just. And it shouldn't have happened. And the book states that. The book explores that. And the characters feel the same way and they reluctantly begin to come to terms with it. But they don't like it and nor should they.

The point is, the death is dealt with in a mature way and Voyager is stronger for it.

Janeway isn't annihilated, we see her at her best and then we feel emotion for her dying. Could there be stories where she doesn't die? Of course! But that's not what happens, so we have to go with it.

First of all, I won't "go with it". I simply refuse to accept it.

And why should I want to read a book which makes me angry, sad and upset. Don't you think I was sad, angry and upset enough when I watched "The Gift"? I was very close to throw out the TV from the window that day. Only pure greed (TV:s are expensive) and care for those walking on the street below prevented me drom doing it. The same happened when I watched "Fury", although I was warned by some American friends who had watched the episode earlier so I did kno what to expect. To make it short, I don't want more character destruction and therefore I have no intention to read "Full Circle".

The relaunch is spectacular. The crew is an ensemble for the first time, the premise has altered but it no longer feels like a TNG clone. Expect what you like, but I have a feeling if Ms Beyer deals with Ocampa it will be compelling and I will run to the forum and say "Lynx, Lynx you have got to read this book!

I have nightmares about it already. Is it something I don' t want and don't need, then it's the total destruction of Kes in any of those books. Not to mention that it will be thrown into my face everytime I post anything on any forum. I'm sure there are some people who will show their malice ove such an event.

No offence, I'm sure it's great but personally I don't read fan fic. It may sound arbitrary, but to me the Trek I enjoy is that which is in the novels. I need my Trek to conform to some sort of logic, and fan fic unfortunately does not always do this, whereas the Novelverse as it now stands does!

Your choice!

Unfortunately, my choices are limited. I do have those wonderful seasons 1-3 books to re-read but if I want a new, good Voyager story, then I have to write it myself.

 

[JB2005]

This has turned into an intersting debate!

Okaay...Season 1 - the Doc is introduced and we see him grow from being an "Emergency Medical Hologram" to becoming an accepted member of the crew. At the end of Season 1 we learn that in his subconscious he yearns to be free of sickbay to explore the rest of the ship (See Projections)

Season 2 the growth continues, to the point where in Basics he is integral in leading the resistance (admittedly only him and Suder) against the Kazon. In addition he learns about his own mortality and limitations when Seska destroys the sickbay's holographic interface.

Season 3 he faces his mortality again when he nearly decompiles and he gains the emitter. From there the growth he was going through before continues. The appeal of the doctor is his growth as a person, the emitter is a part of that growth, but his entire existence is not defined specifically around the fact that he cannot leave Sickbay. He can go anywhere with holo-emitters, he never loses that crutch, he merely gets a more mobile alternative (similar to Geordi, he never regains his sight, he just changes the way in which he percieves).

Compare that to Kes. If you extend her lifespan then the premise of the character will fundamentally changed. Geordi and the Doctor will forever have the restraint of their crutches. Kes will not, and thus her character will not be defined around her lifespan, but rather around her telepathy - ie making her another Betazoid.

Also, corpses are dead, it's a very specific life-state. You can't have a dying corpse.

You're right about that corpses are dead. "Dying corpse" was simply a badly choice of words from me.

But I still prefer a living Betazoid to someone slowly dying and all that melodramatic rubbish that follows with it.

I have no problems with The Doctor's emitter or Geordis new pair of eyes but I still think it changed the original premise of those characters dramatically and I see no reason why Kes couldn't have a prolonged lifespan, especially since it was stated that it was possible ("Cold Fire").

And I think that it was interesting that in Cold Fire, the Ocampa who choose to undergo the proceedure are antagonists...

That's where we disagree. There is plenty of story in a character accepting his limitations and living within them. For example. The Doctor can only regenerate 12 times. He's currently on his 10th regeneration (11th incarnation), so in 2 more Doctors he'll reach the end of his life span.

Now, I thoroughly expect that at that point the writers will invoke the bullshit bullshit and he'll regenerate. In my opinion that's a cop out, but less so than Kes for this reason:

The Doctor was not introduced with the fact he could only regenerate 12 times (that came later)
It is not frequently mentioned in the series
It is a characteristic, but it does not define him (unlike Kes, who's whole premise revolves around the fact she can only live 9 years)

In which episode or book was it tated that The Doctor could only re-generate 12 times. I can't remember seeing it anywhere.

In fact, it looks like something totally unnecessarily which was throwed in to create more melodrama.

It started in The Deadly Assassin and has been reference a few times since then. And it served an important plot point explaining the motivations of some of the "evil" timelords (they had no more regenerations and so were desperate to survive)

I don't think so. Kes would have been the same even if she had had a lifespan of a Vulcan. She's a born explorer.

She was born with 9 years to live. While the exploring instinct was hers, the drive comes from her limited lifespan so she has to push herself to see these things, or else she won't live to.

The Vulcans are more cautious, they take the longer view - the result of a 200 year lifespan. Lifespans tend to affect your perception of the world around you.

Please don't call me racist! It's actually an insulting remark.

Ok, sorry, androidist, whatever...

Even if I do respect the androids rights in this matter, we still have to realize that androids do differ from humans in certain aspects. Therefore I see no reason why Data couldn't be saved the way I suggested. On the other hand, I do find it totally unnecessary and rude to kill him off in the first place. TNG is dead without Data. Fortunately there are old episodes to watch and old books to read.

B4 was a person. A retarded person certainly, but a person none the less. To suggest that Data would happily kill his brother in order to come back to life...it sits very uneasily.

Not exactly. What they did was to put Spock's mind and put it into a copy of Spock's body (which is almost the same as my suggestion for the restration of Data).

Did we watch the same film? Spock's body was regenerated by Genesis. The body was always the same, but it restarted and aged with Genesis.

Perhaps. But consider how much money they lose when long-time fans like me abandon those books.

$6.99 per book? or £6.99 if they're on this side of the pond...on a print run of 50,000 (not sure where I got that figure from, but I seem to remember that being the average run of a Trek book) it's a small dent, and there's no sign that the dent is very bid.

First of all, I won't "go with it". I simply refuse to accept it.

And why should I want to read a book which makes me angry, sad and upset. Don't you think I was sad, angry and upset enough when I watched "The Gift"? I was very close to throw out the TV from the window that day. Only pure greed (TV:s are expensive) and care for those walking on the street below prevented me drom doing it. The same happened when I watched "Fury", although I was warned by some American friends who had watched the episode earlier so I did kno what to expect. To make it short, I don't want more character destruction and therefore I have no intention to read "Full Circle".

Because if you invest emotion with these characters, then you should undergo the whole gamut, happiness and sadness. It cheapens the experience if they're only ever happy. The west wing would have if nothing ever went bad...

The relaunch is spectacular. The crew is an ensemble for the first time, the premise has altered but it no longer feels like a TNG clone. Expect what you like, but I have a feeling if Ms Beyer deals with Ocampa it will be compelling and I will run to the forum and say "Lynx, Lynx you have got to read this book!

I have nightmares about it already. Is it something I don' t want and don't need, then it's the total destruction of Kes in any of those books. Not to mention that it will be thrown into my face everytime I post anything on any forum. I'm sure there are some people who will show their malice ove such an event.

Soooo...if Kes is brought back...in a way we know you would approve of...it's still a bad thing?

No offence, I'm sure it's great but personally I don't read fan fic. It may sound arbitrary, but to me the Trek I enjoy is that which is in the novels. I need my Trek to conform to some sort of logic, and fan fic unfortunately does not always do this, whereas the Novelverse as it now stands does!

Your choice!

Unfortunately, my choices are limited. I do have those wonderful seasons 1-3 books to re-read but if I want a new, good Voyager story, then I have to write it myself.

I personally think you're cutting yourself off from some of the best Trek Lit in years. The last Voyager book was completely apart from "Death Trek" and was a welcome breath of fresh air.

 

[exodus]

They did give The Doctor that omitter which radically changed the premise for the character.

No, it didn't.
It gave him mobility, it never changed the fact the he was still a hologram. Isn't no different than giving someone who can't walk a wheel chair. They are now mobile, it doesn't change the fact they still can't walk. The characters premise was to be treated as equal to us to spite being different and having set backs.

Geordi LaForge got rid of his visor which radically changed the premise for the character.

How so?
Geordi didn't get rid of anything until "First Contact".
We never saw the effects of how it changed him.
Even with the new "eyes", he too us was still the same Geordi.

So why is it so impossible to prolong Kes's lifespan? She would still be the same character. I don't think that her curiosity and will to learn and explore would suffer from that. On the contrary, now she would know that she had more time and possibilities to learn and explore.

Never said anything about it being impossable.
The difference is, she'd be just like everyone else.
Kes is an alien. Another race, from another planet.
Part of what makes her alien and Ocampian, is her life span.
If Kes is going to live just as long as we do, then she might as well be human or Betazoid. That's all ready been done. She isn't alien or unique anymore.

As for Kirk and Data, as you probably know, I strongly object to the killing off and destruction of those characters. One reason that I don't read TNG books either is that Data is missing.

And I strongly object against the annihilation of Janeway in the Voyager Relaunch books and the current "Death Trek" trend.

Sounds like you just have a general issue with the topic of death rather than the story or the characters involved. These stories aren't character distruction, I think you might just have a phobia.

 

[Lynx]

And I think that it was interesting that in Cold Fire, the Ocampa who choose to undergo the proceedure are antagonists...

Even that would be better than a slowly dying favorite character.

Despite them being antagonists or not, their technique would still be a great help for Kes.

It started in The Deadly Assassin and has been reference a few times since then. And it served an important plot point explaining the motivations of some of the "evil" timelords (they had no more regenerations and so were desperate to survive)

I can't find that episode. Are you sure you aren't mixing up Voyager with Doctor Who?

She was born with 9 years to live. While the exploring instinct was hers, the drive comes from her limited lifespan so she has to push herself to see these things, or else she won't live to.

The Vulcans are more cautious, they take the longer view - the result of a 200 year lifespan. Lifespans tend to affect your perception of the world around you.

I could easily write about a character with a human lifespan who would have the same drive and interest for exploring and learning. It's all about will, skill and imagination.

B4 was a person. A retarded person certainly, but a person none the less. To suggest that Data would happily kill his brother in order to come back to life...it sits very uneasily.

I think we have a "Tuvix dilemma" here.

As for "Tuvix", I think that Janeway made the right decision.

And as I wrote before, they didn't have to kill off Data in the first place.

Did we watch the same film? Spock's body was regenerated by Genesis. The body was always the same, but it restarted and aged with Genesis.

Well, it can always be twisted that way, still I see the whole plot as weirder and more unrealistic that giving Kes a prolonged lifespan.

$6.99 per book? or £6.99 if they're on this side of the pond...on a print run of 50,000 (not sure where I got that figure from, but I seem to remember that being the average run of a Trek book) it's a small dent, and there's no sign that the dent is very bid.

I do think that we should take a look at the new fanbase which they are relying on.

When it comes to Voyager, they have alienated a lot of old fans of the show, mostly the Janeway fans.

What they have today seem to be a mixture of those who actually are fans of certain authors, not any series and those who didn't like Voyager in the first place but seem to like the current direction. Oh yes, I've seen some malice about Janeway's fate in the books being expressed by certain people on different boards.

But will those fans stay loyal to the book series? I mean, they don't have any interest in Voyager from the beginning and they might jump the ship when something new and more exciting turns up.

Because if you invest emotion with these characters, then you should undergo the whole gamut, happiness and sadness. It cheapens the experience if they're only ever happy.

I don't want total happiness for those characters, that would be a bit unrealistic but I don't want to see them being killed off either. What's the point of reading a Voyager book series if many of the main characters are missing, destroyed and annihilated and then replaced by characters who I don't care about. There are, in fact other books out there to read than Voyager books.

Soooo...if Kes is brought back...in a way we know you would approve of...it's still a bad thing?

Depends on how they bring back the character. I don't want any "Fury"-related "going-back-to-Ocampa-to-die" crap. I want the Kes back that we saw in the first three seasons.

If Kes would be brought back in a way I find appropriate, then I might re-evalue my opinion about those books.

But we still have the Janeway issue.

I personally think you're cutting yourself off from some of the best Trek Lit in years. The last Voyager book was completely apart from "Death Trek" and was a welcome breath of fresh air.

The best TrekLit in years were the season 1-3 Voyager books! http://lynx677.110mb.com/bookreviews.html

Sorry, but considering the absence of certain Voyager characters, of which the leading character had been annihilated in a previous book, I find it hard to see the books with stories in the current direction as "a welcome breath of fresh air".

 

[exodus]

So in other words, you want Kes to be Peter Pan.
Never grow old, never grow up and never to change.

She'd be just another Harry Kim.
If that's the case, then IMO she'd be a wasted character as well as wasting the time & talents of Jen Lien.
I'm sure she didn't try out to play the role of a static character.
They should have just given the role to an 8 yr old child actress.

 

[JB2005]

^ To be honest a lot of the Kes concept could be argued to be recycled with Naomi Wildman...

 

[exodus]

^ To be honest a lot of the Kes concept could be argued to be recycled with Naomi Wildman...

I think they split it as a do over between Niomi, Neelix & Seven.
Niomi got the ambition
Neelix got the warm affection/nurturing aspects
Seven got the emotional growth from child to teen to adult.

If Seven would have died in "Endgame" as Braga's original plan, then we would have gotten death too.

 

[Lynx]

^ To be honest a lot of the Kes concept could be argued to be recycled with Naomi Wildman...

Maybe one reason why I really never liked Naomi Wildman. They dump a great character and take some of the concept and use it for a character not even half as good.

I'm not that fond of Seven either but I'm happy that Braga wasn't allowed to come up with his death plan for the character.

"They talk about creating but all they do is kill
They say they gonna mend it but they never will"

"No No No"
Deep Purple

 

[JB2005]

For the record, in Before and After it's stated that Kes always accepted that she'd only live 9 years...so if Kes doesn't want to live longer, that's the ballgame as far as I'm concerned. Now back to our regularly scheduled debate:

Field Medics!