Field Medic

[exodus]

that could be said for anyone that wasnt the doc or seven.

Janeway, Be'Lanna, Tom & Neelix seemed to have certain themed story arcs that ran through the series for them. I guess it depends on how prominate they seemed to you.

...but Kes vs. Seven, the reasons why and impressions of how the characters are, all are subject for another post. If not, this nonsense will drag on forever. Know what I mean?

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

Janeway, Be'Lanna, Tom & Neelix seemed to have certain themed story arcs that ran through the series for them. I guess it depends on how prominate they seemed to you.

Janeway had stories, but no real arch to her character I found. B'Elanna became a secondary character when Seven arrived, and all the technical aspects were solved by Borg tech, rather than Maquis ingenuity. Tom had a decent enough arch, in the bad boy becomes good and then becomes a husband and father. Neelix was just so irritating I missed most of his episodes.

But that's just me.

 

[exodus]

Janeway, Be'Lanna, Tom & Neelix seemed to have certain themed story arcs that ran through the series for them. I guess it depends on how prominate they seemed to you.

Janeway had stories, but no real arch to her character I found. B'Elanna became a secondary character when Seven arrived, and all the technical aspects were solved by Borg tech, rather than Maquis ingenuity. Tom had a decent enough arch, in the bad boy becomes good and then becomes a husband and father. Neelix was just so irritating I missed most of his episodes.

But that's just me.

I found Janeway's arc was the struggle to keep herself in check with her own morals & values. Her second was to get to know her crew as more than just officers and walk the line between captain and mother. I see it as explaining why Adm. Janeway was cold, morally questionable and why she felt a need to stop herself from becoming that person, also why loosing Chakotay, Seven & Tuvok damaged her so.

Be'Lanna's arc is her challenge to accept the part of her heritage she denies. I didn't find anything about her character development that dealt with technology or that scaling her back altered her arc, to be honest.

Me personally, I never found Neelix irritating.
I found Westly much, much worse.

 

[orthis]

I've never really understood why Jennifer Lien left, was it her choice or was she forced? As Seven didn't replace her in sickbay and the two characters were polar opposites (Kes was kind, caring and compassionate whilst Seven was cold and off-putting, I always found).

Or is there a rule in the Trek creators bible that says no series will have more than three women?

As Lynx said, it's stupid to have your best pilot give up his post to go down to sickbay to do a job he was mediocre at.

Also, like you said about the hydroponics bay, which was in Cargo Bay 2, where did it go after the Borg invaded? Keeping things like the need for food and supplies a constant issue, would have made the series a little more believable (well as far as a ship capable of faster-than-light travel, lost 75 years from Earth, can be believable ).

She was forced to leave. She had no intention at all to leave before she was told that "they wouldn't renew her contract" (which in reality is the same as a firing) somewhere between the filming of season 3 and 4.

There are some early interviews as well from seasons 1-3, most notably on the season 3 DVD and Jennifer Lien seems happy with her role and the character.

Obviously, when Seven arrived, the first choice was to dump Kim but when a silly inside poll among the staff of a magazine listed Garret Wang as one of "the 50 most handsome", those in charge changed their minds and dumped Kes instead.

I don't think kim was the obvious choice, I actually quite liked the paris and kim pair (Much like O'brian and Bashir but younger) and he is a sort of ongoing joke, of them nearly getting home but they never make it a harry gets upset plus think about all his doomed romances we would miss if he was gone e.g. a borg or the wrong twin. Finally we need someone to play Captain Proton with Tom.

 

[exodus]

I've never really understood why Jennifer Lien left, was it her choice or was she forced? As Seven didn't replace her in sickbay and the two characters were polar opposites (Kes was kind, caring and compassionate whilst Seven was cold and off-putting, I always found).

Or is there a rule in the Trek creators bible that says no series will have more than three women?

As Lynx said, it's stupid to have your best pilot give up his post to go down to sickbay to do a job he was mediocre at.

Also, like you said about the hydroponics bay, which was in Cargo Bay 2, where did it go after the Borg invaded? Keeping things like the need for food and supplies a constant issue, would have made the series a little more believable (well as far as a ship capable of faster-than-light travel, lost 75 years from Earth, can be believable ).

She was forced to leave. She had no intention at all to leave before she was told that "they wouldn't renew her contract" (which in reality is the same as a firing) somewhere between the filming of season 3 and 4.

There are some early interviews as well from seasons 1-3, most notably on the season 3 DVD and Jennifer Lien seems happy with her role and the character.

Obviously, when Seven arrived, the first choice was to dump Kim but when a silly inside poll among the staff of a magazine listed Garret Wang as one of "the 50 most handsome", those in charge changed their minds and dumped Kes instead.

I don't think kim was the obvious choice, I actually quite liked the paris and kim pair (Much like O'brian and Bashir but younger) and he is a sort of ongoing joke, of them nearly getting home but they never make it a harry gets upset plus think about all his doomed romances we would miss if he was gone e.g. a borg or the wrong twin. Finally we need someone to play Captain Proton with Tom.

Rumor has it Harry was supposed to die from the Species 8472 virus in "Scorpion".

However, keeping him was a potential plus for the show. Due to him being voted "One of the 50 most Sexiest Men" in a huge and widely read publication like PEOPLE, it had the potential to draw more women viewers into the show.

I also agree about the Tom/Harry dynamtic.
Tom needed someone like Harry because it makes Tom a more colorful character in comparison.
Tom does come off like a cool guy next to Harry.

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

Tom needed someone like Harry because it makes Tom a more colorful character in comparison.
Tom does come off like a cool guy next to Harry.

An inanimate carbon rod comes off like a cool guy next to Harry.

 

[exodus]

Tom needed someone like Harry because it makes Tom a more colorful character in comparison.
Tom does come off like a cool guy next to Harry.

An inanimate carbon rod comes off like a cool guy next to Harry.

Who left a window open?
It's cold in here.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

Rumor has it Harry was supposed to die from the Species 8472 virus in "Scorpion".

However, keeping him was a potential plus for the show. Due to him being voted "One of the 50 most Sexiest Men" in a huge and widely read publication like PEOPLE, it had the potential to draw more women viewers into the show.

I also agree about the Tom/Harry dynamtic.
Tom needed someone like Harry because it makes Tom a more colorful character in comparison.
Tom does come off like a cool guy next to Harry.

Harry was a kinda 'meh' character I found. Alright, but not exactly outstanding. It wouldn't have really bothered me if they'd killed him off. Also Garrett Wang handsome? Not seeing it I'm afraid.

Paris/Kim was a very poor imitation of O'Brien/Bashir. Kim was basically Paris' lackey, whilst O'Brien and Bashir were equals in the partnership.

 

[Pauln6]

^'no direction to further take the character in.'

surely you jest?

It's a polite way to say they had no interest in writing for the character anymore.
They openly admitted to writing the character into what they felt was creatively a dead end.
I thought it was fairly obvious that after "Caretaker" they had no soild direction on what they wanted Kes to do or become.

Yes this is a hilariously transparent comment. Lien had an impressive screen presence and that voice... but, in spite of giving her a very limited life span and nebulous powers that could have been developed over time (instead of instant switch on and reset button) the writers had no idea how to use her in the plot on a regular basis. There was a significant disconnect of imagination on the writers' part that had nothing to do with the actress or character. If they had ripped off the Dark Phoenix saga or the Fury and told the story as an ongoing plot thread it would have worked perfectly for Kes.

If they had developed her powers there would have been a myriad of ways she could have contributed and her death should have been part of the overall plot arc from the start. She had more plot potential than Harry, Paris, and Chakotay combined if you remove Belanna from the Tom equation.

At the very least they should have kept her around until after the Year of Hell and used the temporal energy as a way of writing her out... taking Harry with her!

In fairness to Harry, he wasn't given much more of a chance than Chaokotay. I would have been happy to see more of the twins and his attempt to woo the wrong one - maybe even ending up with the right one.

I also thing that the rebellious maquis from season one should have appeard more often - only Chell got to make a comeback and then I think that was only in the final season. Gerron would have made an ok field medic after all.

 

[exodus]

^'no direction to further take the character in.'

surely you jest?

It's a polite way to say they had no interest in writing for the character anymore.
They openly admitted to writing the character into what they felt was creatively a dead end.
I thought it was fairly obvious that after "Caretaker" they had no soild direction on what they wanted Kes to do or become.

Yes this is a hilariously transparent comment. Lien had an impressive screen presence and that voice... but, in spite of giving her a very limited life span and nebulous powers that could have been developed over time (instead of instant switch on and reset button) the writers had no idea how to use her in the plot on a regular basis. There was a significant disconnect of imagination on the writers' part that had nothing to do with the actress or character. If they had ripped off the Dark Phoenix saga or the Fury and told the story as an ongoing plot thread it would have worked perfectly for Kes.

If they had developed her powers there would have been a myriad of ways she could have contributed and her death should have been part of the overall plot arc from the start. She had more plot potential than Harry, Paris, and Chakotay combined if you remove Belanna from the Tom equation.

At the very least they should have kept her around until after the Year of Hell and used the temporal energy as a way of writing her out... taking Harry with her!

In fairness to Harry, he wasn't given much more of a chance than Chaokotay. I would have been happy to see more of the twins and his attempt to woo the wrong one - maybe even ending up with the right one.

I also thing that the rebellious maquis from season one should have appeard more often - only Chell got to make a comeback and then I think that was only in the final season. Gerron would have made an ok field medic after all.

Ok but even with all this said, it still comes down to one thing: They didn't want too.

I'm not sure why folks take offence to the fact the very same writers/producers that created the character have every right to get rid of her if they don't have any interest in writing for her anymore. Kes sounded good on paper but upon execution it wasn't enough. They openly admitted they were at fault, it's not like they lied or put blame on Lien. They took responsibilty and owned up to it.

How many casts of characters has the production crew made for all 4 spin offs of Trek. All out all of those characters, you don't think at least one is going to be a dud? It's not like Voyager is the only show this ever happened on in all of TV history.

 

[Pauln6]

Ah but the point I was making was that if the character was a dud, it was their fault that she was a dud through their own lack of imagination. The concept was sound, the actress was good, but the writing was lacking.

By contrast, Seven, who had a clear progression and character arc, was handled the way Kes should have been, even if the romance element was forcing a square peg into a round hole towards the end of the show's run.

It's very careless to have a character who has roughly only 7 years to live and give her no clear arc. Having said that, because the writers and producers are well known to be sexist, part of their problem was that they didn't want to age Kes and turn their pretty actress into a middle-aged woman. I think the fact that Lien was starting to suffer an allergic reaction to the latex ears didn't help the character's chances either. Personally I think that Kes should have left half way through the season as part of Year of Hell and Kim should have left at some point after that after giving him some meatier stories to make actually care about him a bit more.

 

[exodus]

Ah but the point I was making was that if the character was a dud, it was their fault that she was a dud through their own lack of imagination. The concept was sound, the actress was good, but the writing was lacking.

By contrast, Seven, who had a clear progression and character arc, was handled the way Kes should have been, even if the romance element was forcing a square peg into a round hole towards the end of the show's run.

It's very careless to have a character who has roughly only 7 years to live and give her no clear arc. Having said that, because the writers and producers are well known to be sexist, part of their problem was that they didn't want to age Kes and turn their pretty actress into a middle-aged woman. I think the fact that Lien was starting to suffer an allergic reaction to the latex ears didn't help the character's chances either. Personally I think that Kes should have left half way through the season as part of Year of Hell and Kim should have left at some point after that after giving him some meatier stories to make actually care about him a bit more.

They admitted their fault, what more do you want?

I also find no truth in the producers being sexist nor the lame excuse for not wanting to age Kes.

 

[Pauln6]

They admitted their fault, what more do you want?

I also find no truth in the producers being sexist nor the lame excuse for not wanting to age Kes.

The writers don't exactly admit fault. In fact they are quite delusional on teh sexism issue. Every series of Star Trek has had a male/female imbalance of 2:1 that runs right through the main characters and guest stars in spite of protestations that the sexes are equal. Women are far more likely to be placed in 'caring' positions of the crew or in roles outside the traditional crew hierarchy. They essentially replaced the (badly written) security chief with a bartender for example.

We have multiple instances of all male command teams and all male security teams but not a single instance of all female command teams or security teams (although DS9 might have sneaked in all-female bajoran team - not sure on that score). The first female security guard apart from Tasha (and one in TAS) was in season 4 of TNG (so three women in 24 years). When Janeway was integrating her senior crew she had not a single woman among them and was pressured to appoint Belanna. I could go on.

Seven was going to be a man when replacing Kim and became a woman when replacing Kes. Nobody thought that it was possible to replace Kim with a woman? They actually said they changed the borg's sex to keep the cast 'balanced' (or more accurately to maintain the traditional imbalance).

Other shows like Farscape and Battlestar Galactica seem to represent the sexes so much more equally to such an extent that NuTrek looks like something from the Dark Ages when it comes to equality.

Back on the field medic thing, I do think it was a role that could have given some breadth to supporting characters. I'm sure they were reluctant to hire spare actors unecessarily but I think Voyager and Enterprise became more stale than say DS9 because of the reluctance to use recurring guest stars for the main cast to bounce off. Shran, Ro, and O'Brien were examples of great recurring guests that were (or would have been) elevated to main character status.

 

[exodus]

They admitted their fault, what more do you want?

I also find no truth in the producers being sexist nor the lame excuse for not wanting to age Kes.

The writers don't exactly admit fault. In fact they are quite delusional on teh sexism issue. Every series of Star Trek has had a male/female imbalance of 2:1 that runs right through the main characters and guest stars in spite of protestations that the sexes are equal. Women are far more likely to be placed in 'caring' positions of the crew or in roles outside the traditional crew hierarchy. They essentially replaced the (badly written) security chief with a bartender for example.

We have multiple instances of all male command teams and all male security teams but not a single instance of all female command teams or security teams (although DS9 might have sneaked in all-female bajoran team - not sure on that score). The first female security guard apart from Tasha (and one in TAS) was in season 4 of TNG (so three women in 24 years). When Janeway was integrating her senior crew she had not a single woman among them and was pressured to appoint Belanna. I could go on.

Seven was going to be a man when replacing Kim and became a woman when replacing Kes. Nobody thought that it was possible to replace Kim with a woman? They actually said they changed the borg's sex to keep the cast 'balanced' (or more accurately to maintain the traditional imbalance).

Other shows like Farscape and Battlestar Galactica seem to represent the sexes so much more equally to such an extent that NuTrek looks like something from the Dark Ages when it comes to equality.

Back on the field medic thing, I do think it was a role that could have given some breadth to supporting characters. I'm sure they were reluctant to hire spare actors unecessarily but I think Voyager and Enterprise became more stale than say DS9 because of the reluctance to use recurring guest stars for the main cast to bounce off. Shran, Ro, and O'Brien were examples of great recurring guests that were (or would have been) elevated to main character status.

Sorry, I don't find "What if?" ideas & speculations prove anything. I don't find it any more truthful than saying: "There were no Asian captains, so they must be racist."

 

[Pauln6]

Sorry, I don't find "What if?" ideas & speculations prove anything. I don't find it any more truthful than saying: "There were no Asian captains, so they must be racist."

And that attitude is why there are still no asian captains. Well, ok, apart from Robau, who is ethnically pakistani by way of south america and is seven shades of awesome. On a more serious note, the number of caucasion and jewish actors that feature compared to other ethnicities does indeed indicate not necessarily racism but a certain laziness in making sure that all ethnicities are represented adequately. About a third of the crew should be chinese for example. I think it's harder from a practical persepetive to achieve that when casting in the US than it is to cast equal numbers of men and women.

I think there comes a time when there is sooooo much evidence that to deny it looks rather foolish and futile, and Trek passed that point on sexism a loooooong time ago. Some people think it isn't sexist because it has some token high profile female characters but it's way short. It's a bit like the climate change debate where one harsh winter is used to decry global warming.

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

Television overall is sexist, don't pin all the blame on Star Trek. List ten popular shows with an equal number of male and female characters.

It essentially comes down to who has the better representation of male and female characters, and at least Voyager had some very well crafted female characters who weren't in traditional 'female' roles (B'Elanna and Seven). Janeway was still the team Mom, the matriarch of the ensemble.

 

[Pauln6]

Credit where it is due - DS9 and Voyager did a lot to improve the way women were portrayed by putting them in roles that were traditionally non-female. I just cannot fathom why Trek writers are still so far behind the curve when it comes to sci fi. NuTrek failed miserably. It took an already sexist show with a massive male/female imbalance and cut all the women they could have used (Number One, T'Pau, Rand, Chapel) except one - plus a slut in panties and a couple of moms.

 

[Lord Manitou]

I doubt the position required much technical expertise. Janeway usually wanted a full account of his character. Him a prison cell-mate! He had a natural ability to confront others. Keeping him with two jobs might keep him out of trouble.

 

[Lynx]

Ah but the point I was making was that if the character was a dud, it was their fault that she was a dud through their own lack of imagination. The concept was sound, the actress was good, but the writing was lacking.

By contrast, Seven, who had a clear progression and character arc, was handled the way Kes should have been, even if the romance element was forcing a square peg into a round hole towards the end of the show's run.

It's very careless to have a character who has roughly only 7 years to live and give her no clear arc. Having said that, because the writers and producers are well known to be sexist, part of their problem was that they didn't want to age Kes and turn their pretty actress into a middle-aged woman. I think the fact that Lien was starting to suffer an allergic reaction to the latex ears didn't help the character's chances either. Personally I think that Kes should have left half way through the season as part of Year of Hell and Kim should have left at some point after that after giving him some meatier stories to make actually care about him a bit more.

What those in charge of the show should have done was to give Kes a prolonged lifespan. That was possible according to the episode "Cold Fire".

In that way they could have solved the aging problem and got rid of the whole silly sever year lifespan thing.

I'm sure that it would have happened if Kes had stayed in the series.

I'm also sure that Kes could have contributed a lot to the Voyager series if she had remained.

I don't want to dump Harry either. A weak character but still likeable in some way.

 

[exodus]

Credit where it is due - DS9 and Voyager did a lot to improve the way women were portrayed by putting them in roles that were traditionally non-female. I just cannot fathom why Trek writers are still so far behind the curve when it comes to sci fi. NuTrek failed miserably. It took an already sexist show with a massive male/female imbalance and cut all the women they could have used (Number One, T'Pau, Rand, Chapel) except one - plus a slut in panties and a couple of moms.

Probably because the idea that Trek as sexist isn't a universal one, only a view point of a select few. Why should the writers be concerned with an issue that has been a plus in their favor and not a negative one.