Federation as the Patriarchy,Romulans as Refuges and Picard having White Privledge.

Discussion in 'Future of Trek' started by Jayson1, Jan 11, 2019.

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  1. Jayson1

    Jayson1 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I know those are kind of touchy words to use because they usually end debate more than help or start one because everyone digs in on their own views but am I the only one who after learning more about the Picard show and how it will use the Romulans also started to think how this show would be topical in terms of issues? To me these seem like the easy to go to places.

    The Federation basically represents the American government at the height of our power being the only really big super power left. Romulans as refuges makes tons of sense because they are a former enemy even though the Romulan government deserves more blame than the citizens yet those Romulans who are alive and weren't on Romulus will be homeless but planets will be resistant to welcome them in. Picard then sort of represents someone who has grown up in this utopia and might not understand what it's like to live outside of the Federation and all the advantages that come with living within the Federation.

    I know. Deep Space NIne already covered all these things before people even talked about it but now is a chance for Trek to do it again and hopefully have the success that DS9 didn't get, but deserved. I also got to say Picard and 24th century Trek is a great place to explore these issues. It feels kind of forced on "Discovery" because the Federation back then wasn't seen as this utopia and Burnham isn't allowed to be someone of privledge and frankly the Klingons don't work as a methpor for Trumpism. They have to much honor and they embrace military conflict and even find their adversaries honorable if they make a worthy foil.

    The chance to deconstruct "Roddenberry's Vision" actually makes the politics angle kind of interesting if they go this way. Then you toss in a actor like Stewart. It feels like a show that can do the political thing in a interesting way instead of feeling like it's preachy or forced. To me this could end up being the "West Wing" of Trek.

    Jason
     
  2. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Are people still using that term?
     
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  3. Jayson1

    Jayson1 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think so. Basically it's a modern way of saying someone who is rich and entitled or at least that is how some see it. Doesn't really matter because I do think it works well as a idea of you want to see a Picard who is different and maybe you do that by him sort of having to take a harder look at his life and the galaxy now that it's in disarray. The Romulans are all but wipped out. Federation is still recovering from the Dominion War. A great hero in Spock has disappeared and he is someone who you could say is the Obama in this example that people had hoped would fix things. Picard is older and no longer on the front lines and maybe the younger generation of Federation people are not happy with what is happening and the older generation is seeing everything they know begin to change and sometimes not for the best.


    Jason
     
  4. Nyotarules

    Nyotarules Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    as long it still exists...yes
     
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  5. Nyotarules

    Nyotarules Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Says who? The homeworld is gone, they had an empire so there will be other populated planets. Example, if Western Europe disappeared into the seas, it would be a tragedy but there would still be 7 billion people living on the planet. During the height of the British Empire, the homeworld UK was not more populated than its subject worlds.
    When Vulcan was destroyed the rest of the Vulcan population did not show up in the Sol system asking for permanent residence. In the Star Trek universe there are plenty of empty planets to go around.
     
  6. Butters

    Butters Commodore Commodore

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    This. I can well imagine a Picard Romulan refugee series, but it wouldn’t make any sense. The Romulan system was destroyed, but that didn’t leave billions of Romulan, and Remans sat on their roof waiting to be re-homed. They’re just gone. Any that are displaced just disperse among the empire.

    I do hope they don’t go that route, it’ll be difficult to watch through the inevitable eye rolling and tutting.
     
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  7. Jayson1

    Jayson1 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    While you think of the universe as a big place I am guessing they would write in reasons why you can't just find them another planet or planets. Maybe nearby aliens don't want them around or the Romulan leadership has problems controlling all the different groups of people who maybe all want to go their seperate ways. Basically lots of stuff you can build some political drama around showing why it isn't as simple as we might think it would be, along with some suspension of disbelief as well because all tv shows and movies need that from time to time. Sometimes the drama or message is better than maybe in-universe logic.


    Jason
     
  8. Nyotarules

    Nyotarules Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yes that might work for some fans, it might even work for the majority of fans but part of the franchise is build on the premise that it is easy to leave, say Earth and upsticks and move to another planet. Star Trek is about exploring, and that is not unique to humans. The neighbours might might not like it re the Cardassian/Maquis storyline in TNG/DS9 but that does not mean there are not enough M class planets to go around. For your premise to work it would need to imply that Romulans conquer planets but never migrate anywhere, which would be ridiculous since all imperial powers leave their own people in charge. Back to the British example, the British used some indigenous peoples as civil servants etc but every one knew who was in really in charge...the colonisers.
    A plot with the Romulan subjects rebelling against whichever Romulan masters are left on their planet makes sense, a bunch of millions or billions of Romulans living on New Remus or whatever looking for a new home planet to live on does not. The empire is years older than the Federation, the Romulan Diaspora would be huge, probably in the billions.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
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  9. Jayson1

    Jayson1 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Well one thing I could maybe also see is we also have the Klingons in the mix as well. Klingons are taking this chance to wipe them out anytime they settle since we know they hate Romulans. Maybe even Section 31 or other aliens. Then what if you even see Federation worlds not wanting to help them which sort of plays into how you can maybe look at a Republican vs Democrat view on the issues. It's not so much about being to leave but find a place where the refuges can build a home without eventually be driven out again. Which does sort of sound familar to what happened to the Bajorans in 'Ensign Ro" I do wonder if they will do anything with the Remans as well. Wasn't a big fan of them so I wouldn't mind maybe some throwaway line about how they were destroyed in the blast or something.

    Jason
     
  10. Nyotarules

    Nyotarules Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    If the writers want to play out American politics for a global audience using Star Trek themes, they do not need my money. If they want to make money they need global themes, its not the 1960's anymore the franchise is bigger than seeing it as just an American show. The Klingons starting a genocidal war against the Romulan Diaspora would make a good plot line, it puts the Federation in a difficult position with the hawks (Admiral Riker, grieiving for the death of his wife Deanna and daughter due to a pre Hobus Romulan skirmish) wanting to side with them and the doves, like Picard being against it. It would have to include retired Ambassador Worf lol
    Something like the Iran/Libya/Syrian situation that a global audience can identity with.
     
  11. The Overlord

    The Overlord Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I do not buy that the Federation is supposed to be the Patriarchy and I am not how you do a white privilege story with Picard if he is mainly dealing with aliens and I think trying to deconstruct Star Trek by making everyone an elitist jerk is a bad idea, I want a compassionate Picard, not for him to be a stuck up jerk.

    That being said I do want there to be a refugee crisis in this series because there is lots of interesting social commentary to be had there and I do think it is a problem Picard never had to deal with before.

    If you want some villains to stand in for ISIS/the alt right, you have some Romulan hardliners who want to rebuild the Empire.

    I disagree because the destruction of Romulus would deepen the divisions in Romulan society we saw in Unification, with the Senate and the Praetor gone and the Romulan Empire losing its capital ,that would throw the empire into chaos, with hardliners from the Romulan military wanting to rebuild the Empire, but make it more militaristic and harsh, with many of the creature comforts from the Empire now gone, while others would want to live in peace and want nothing to do with these hardliners.

    The hardliners would likely be taking all the resources they can get to rebuild the military, which leave the civilians in a bad state. I think a lot of Romulans would rather live on Vulcan or elsewhere in the Federation, rather then live under a psychopathic admiral who declares himself Praetor.

    We already saw a peace/unification movement in Unification and an attempted military coup and Reman uprising in Nemesis, these divisions would get worse after Romulus was destroyed, but they have always been there, they were likely held in check by the Romulan government, which is now gone.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019
  12. Jayson1

    Jayson1 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I'm not saying Picard would be this jerk. He would just be someone who might not understand fully what the Romulan people are going through. He wants to help but maybe he doesn't fully understand the culture since most of his experience has always been with military types. Which also would be a fun chance to explore aspects of the Romulan culture we have never seen before by seeing more of their civilians than we have ever seen before. What kind of music do they listen to or do they believe in a God or Gods. Stuff like that. I do get the feeling with the latest news and this is something I find fun to think about is our first Romulan series regular for the new show. You can't do a story about Romulans if you don't have some interesting Romulan characters.

    This might also be out their but what if Spock had a child with a Romulan when he was living on the planet and we see Spock's child who was raised on Romulus and she or he joins up with Picard.

    Jason
     
  13. Serveaux

    Serveaux The Wind Premium Member

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    The culture supposedly represented by the Enterprise in TOS - eventually named "the Federation" - started out as simply a taken-for-granted Middle American culture writ large. It was grounded in post-WWII triumphalism. We were the good guys; our way of life was the default definition of good itself.

    GR's utopian revision of it for the 24th-century shows took that a step further: the Federation simply wished all of the uncomfortable issues created by our own way of life into the cornfield. Without real explanation or credibility, at some point between now and then racism, income inequality and putatively sexism had simply disappeared without apparently unsettling white middle class privilege at all and without apparently requiring any change to comfortable 20th century values or exacting any apparent historical toll on those of us who had marginalized others, unchallenged, for centuries.

    How reassuring. It'll all just work out. It always does.
     
  14. The Overlord

    The Overlord Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I think this story should be about compassion, not Picard coming off as out of touch doofus. Picard may have some trust issues with the Romulans, but I think the fact that he melded with Spock and the nature of the horror of billions of Romulans dying would give him a sense of compassion towards their plight, Picard has no personal reason to hate the Romulans that would override his compassion. It makes more sense that others be more intolerant then Picard: xenophobic Vulcans would oppose Romulans settling on their planet, hardliner Romulans would oppose any Romulan that does not support their bid to rebuild the empire and maybe Klingons trying to annex Romulan territory.

    I would like to see the Romulans more developed and fleshed out in this show though.
     
  15. MrPointy

    MrPointy Captain Captain

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    I wrote down bullet points and story beats ages ago at another place regarding how I expected a post-Romulan Supernova Picard TV series to go and how analogous it would be to the current Syria/Middle East situation.
    I expect Picard, with his ties to Spock and the Romulan Dissident movement, to be sympathetic to Romulan refugees and to basically be a diplomat weaving through all these various factions, and we'll get 40+ minutes of Picard speeches every episode.
     
  16. Jayson1

    Jayson1 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    One thing we need to look at with Picard though is where should they start him off at and where he ends up in terms of a character arc. I like the idea that he starts off kind thinking he has all the answers. Which on the show would almost end with him always being right and often ending in a speech. He needs to fail, learn a lesson and then grow from that failure in some fashion IMO. I do think you want to end the show on some type of hopeful message. This is still Trek and also TNG Picard so I think you need that IMO. Maybe it all ends with the Romulans being granted Federation membership and you see a a Romulan character being welcomed into the Federation version of a Senate or whatever political body they have.

    Jason
     
  17. arch101

    arch101 Commodore Commodore

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    I'm curious why so many here and elsewhere seem to think that the Romulans would be refugees. They had an EMPIRE. The Romulans have not been characterized as helpless dummies. They would logically declare another imperial world the new capitol and carry on business as usual. They would still have their fleet, their intelligence service and most of their people. The Klingons continued their empire after they accidentally spoiled their home planet. I think the bigger issue would be: what would the new government look like? Would they retreat into their realm for 20 years like they did before TNG? Maybe they're now reemerging in a reconstituted form. Picard would seem especially qualified given his experience with Romulus and the First (re)Contact featured in The Neutral Zone.
     
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  18. The Overlord

    The Overlord Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I could see Romulan refugees because this new Empire would far more harsh than the old one and lack the creature comforts it had. We have seen divisions in the Empire before, we have a dissident movement that wants to reunite with Vulcan, we saw military hardliners be part of a coup that saw the Romulan Senate killed and the Romulan military supporting a strike on Earth, only getting cold feet when it seemed like Shinzon wanted genocide, not conquest. With the Senate wiped out, all the pragmsists would be gone, so only the idealists and the hardliners would remain and I doubt they would get along. I can totally see some Romulans not wanting to be part of a harsh and more unforgiving empire.
     
  19. Jayson1

    Jayson1 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    That is possible and it was also a similar question about the Vulcans in the Kelvin Universe when their planet got destroyed. It is something that can make sense if you want to do it because of just in-universe reasoning but I think the refugee angle is seen more likely because it feels more topical to the modern world in terms of social issues and thus is a avenue for more drama that might resonate more. I do kind of like the idea though of a Romulan Civil War breaking out between different factions. I think we might even see Romulan criminals types as well. I mean I could see them using a character selling Romulan Ale for a high profit since their are only so few bottles left that were created from the grape fields of Romulus or whatever place they were made at.

    Jason
     
  20. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    Kurtzman mentions "the dissolution of the Romulan Empire" in a recent interview.

    We also don't know how far the damage reaches. The best guess we have is the star charts used for background graphics in Discovery, which are hardly binding.
    [​IMG]
     
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