Fearful Symmetry Review Thread (spoilers)

[ATimson]

You'd think someone would check to make sure that what they are putting up is actually accurate.

The fault has traditionally been on the publisher's end of things; these "inaccurate descriptions" often match up with the descriptions Pocket first makes available to booksellers.

 

[JD]

Well, that just makes this even more disapointing then.

 

[Marie1]

Not anymore than most book backcovers in an ongoing series.

Thats true... although as ambiguous as they are, prefer the ones that say the least. I don't want to know the end for sure, or all the exciting things that will happen- esp. for a series!!

You'd think someone would check to make sure that what they are putting up is actually accurate.

The fault has traditionally been on the publisher's end of things; these "inaccurate descriptions" often match up with the descriptions Pocket first makes available to booksellers.

Seconding JD's post- that just... shouldn't be. I mean, they can get bad enough that I skip books out of disinterest, etc. I know that things change during the righting period, but... a stitch in time saves nine... (not sure if tht *really* applies...

 

[Trent Roman]

Of course, those blurbs are intended for internal circulation within the industry and not public consumption, which is why speed is prized over accuracy...

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Marie1]

^ Now that would explain a lot...

With all the tumult now, I must say I'm soooo glad that the Soul Key was scheduled etc quite a while ago...

 

[Marie1]

Oh!!! After reading the great annotations to Warpath by DM (and also a couple of mistakes I didn't see... ) I was wondering- are there annotations for Fearful Symmetry? Will there be, if there isn't? Or is OW too busy writing? I checked on Google but couldn't find any. Tho Google temporarily tricked me into thinking Therin had some.

 

[DS9Continuing]

Not everybody does annotations - it's the exception, not the rule. They're a long way from a requirement - more a pleasant bonus. Plus they're unpaid work for the writer. I wouldn't necessarily expect them from Ms Wood - which should not be construed as a lack of interest by her.

 

[Marie1]

Oh, I certainly don't fault her for not doing it, I'm sure she's busy on other projects including the next book in the DS9R. But sometimes Google is wacky, so I thought I just couldn't find one. Given the amount of work I've seen in them, Mack's for instance was extremely detailed, I can see an author not... especially unpaid... but if one had existed, I would have read it with interest.

FS hasn't been out as long as it seems...

I'm trying to compile a list from the posts KRAD and others has put in messages here of books I need to look into- that should tide me over. Patience is hard.

I need to know about Taran'atar, and how much IG knows about Sisko, and what happens to Vaughn... *sigh*

 

[DS9forever]

I finally finished Fearful Symmetry a few days ago. If Warpath is the DS9 relaunch's "Best of Both Worlds", then Fearful Symmetry is its "Family". It was truly excellent and I hope the author keeps writing for DS9.

 

[Marie1]

I feel bad for being worried about FS. A lot of authors are new to ST lately, I think Woods and Jarmen are "relatively" new... but I really should've had more confidence in the editing and writing, given how much I'd enjoyed it all that time. And I found that Woods hit the characters right on- especially Ro. Ro reacts and feels exactly how I'd expect her to. In fact, better. I'm surprised Tenmi doesn't have more... "issues" but she seems tough. I was quite impressed with Woods, in no small way because of the subject matter she dealt with in a very mature manner. I'm really looking forward to who she writes Soul Key, I hope there are no changes... there have been so many good authors in the DS9R and from there I learned about even more good ones I wouldn't have known about otherwise!!

But Warpath was just exciting!!

 

[JD]

Actually Heather Jarman has been writting Trek since '02, so she's been at it for quite a while. She just hasn't done quite as many stories as some of the other authors. Here's her Memory Beta page.

 

[Marie1]

I have the ones from 2002 and 2004... I guess 2002 was 6 years ago, wasn't it? Where'd the time go? It doesn't seem like that long ago!! =(

Thanks for pointing that out though, I've liked the work of hers that I've read, so I'm glad she's done way more than I realized. Then again, I haven't really read any VOY, and I've just gotten into SCE, which is probably why.

I really like how OW pulls a lot of the loose threads from OD onward together with regard to Taran'atar's potential mental state. Its hard to imagine the Jem'Hadar as being both so intelligent *and* programmed. I always got the impression that the Jem'Hadar obey the Founders, they have a goal, and they accomplish it however they can. So I've been having trouble figuring out what Taran'atar has done on his own versus what he did because of what is programmed. I don't know about the rest of you, but I have trouble figuring which is which in some cases. For instance, the real motive of his attack on Kira, which IG claims she didn't want in FS. Also, to what extent his hatred of the AQ is real vs. how much of it is Ghemor's. And yet, he seems to think he's excercising free will, yet he can't even control his body it seems- like he does things he doesn't want to. So like Hippocratic Oath again, I wonder how much of whats going on is programmed, which Bashir wants it to be, and how much of it was aided fantastically by the outlet Ghemor gave him. Am I making sense?

 

[Christopher]

Its hard to imagine the Jem'Hadar as being both so intelligent *and* programmed.

No different from the rest of us, really; it's just that the programs are different. We're "programmed" with drives such as fear, love, lust, anger, etc., and those can cause us to behave in certain ways no matter how much our reason tells us not to -- or else they subconsciously shape our reasoning so that we think we've made a reasoned choice to do something when we're really just acting out of instinct and making excuses for it.

 

[Marie1]

True...
And your explanation also factors in to his ability to not be able to take actions that he wants to, which is more mental than physical of course. (When I read that passage, tho unrelated, I thought of drugged Bashir in Abyss who couldn't even talk when whatisname didn't want him too. It was weird).

And I guess in the case of Jem'Hadar, things like lust, passion, fear have been replaced with a obedience and victory to whatever the Vorta or Founders want at all cost, even if whatever the Vorta order is completely ridiculous. So I shouldn't really be surprised at Taran'atar's specific actions, even not knowing what she told him to do, and even tho he isn't always doing what he's told. Once something is in your brain, you can't necessarily forget even if you're told to.

And given Taran'atar's insistance that he would obey Odo's desire for him to stay there and learn or die trying, this is all probably simplier than I'm making it out to be.

To be honest, though its unlikely, whats happening to Taran'atar is reminding me (finally figured out what was in the back of my head) as what happened to Garak on Empok Nor. And IG is a Cardassian, and may know how to do this. Its like his hatred of the AQ's people, his own zenophobic (or "zeno-disdainful) has increased exponentially, so he's doing things an obediant Jem'Hadar wouldn't. Even his thought process near the end of Warpath is missing the logical middle ground- either Odo wanted him to disobey by killing Kira, or else he's just disobediant... what a thing to struggle with!!

 

[DevilEyes]

Er - you have read Andrew's first sentence?

Yes, but there were loads of things before then - as Marco says above

As Rowan Sjet said that has nothing to do with the fact that you were ignoring one crucial sentence from Andrew's post when answering. Basically you were only refering to FS, when he specifically was asking about horrendous things we knew about before FS.

The problem I had with Dukat in FS was that it just doesn't fit his character in my opinion and that has nothing to do with "sympathy". I'll just quote from my review:

I think that while the "Illiana-as-Kira held captive by Dukat as his sex doll" plot adds quite a bit to her character, on the other hand it’s taking away too much from the character of Dukat, in my opinion. Sure, he is a megalomaniac, sick, cold-hearted bastard who has conceivably raped many women, but I don’t think he is the kind of man who would have fun raping a drugged woman. As I see it, for him the "fun" lies in the act of breaking people, but you can’t do that when your victim isn’t fully aware of her surroundings. But even if you don’t take the drugging into account, before she got her fighting spirit back he had basically broken her already during the time of her captivity, to the point where she doesn’t really care anymore. I think by this point at the latest, he would have lost interest, no matter how fixated he might be on Kira. So having him act like that kind of ruined one of the few truly interesting villains of Star Trek a bit for me.

Based on what I've read here, I don't think I am going to be looking for this book. I know that, in general, you shouldn't judge a book you haven't read, but in this case I am sure that the plot about Dukat raping and torturing Iliana Ghemor is... how shall I put it?

Ah yes... UTTER CRAP.

It is completely out of character for Dukat as we've gotten to know him on the show. And not because I think he is a 'too nice' to do that. He is not. But because that's simply not him. For two reasons, which all boil down to one: essentially, Dukat is a narcissist, obsessed with making people love and admire him, obsessed with being the hero. He wants women to want him and love him and see him as their hero and protector - even while he's abusing his power and manipulating them into 'voluntarily choosing' that which he has already decided for them. I don't believe he would literally rape anyone, simply because there is nothing there for him, that is not what he is after. I liked "Wrongs Darker than Death or Night", because, to me, that was completely in character for Dukat - he abuses his power over Bajoran women and uses their vulnerable position to play his 'I am a nice guy, saving the poor Bajoran woman'. And through this, just like with everything he does, he has to be able to convince himself that he genuinely loves them and is 'helping' them. Before his "Waltz" insanity, Dukat never even admited to himself his deep-seated anger and hatred for Bajorans. There was never any indication that he was even consciously aware of it, let alone 'releasing' these feelings by torturing and raping a drugged and imprisoned woman. This seems like nothing but a bad, unconvincing retcon.

First of all, what pleasure would someone like Dukat get from this? He could try to break her spirit so she would accept his help and 'love' and be grateful, that I can buy. But he's gaining nothing this way. Remember, for him, the victory consists in making one's enemies realize that they were wrong to oppose you in the first place.

And second, how would he have been able to justify such deeds to himself? Even if she was really Bajoran - as I said, he was still convincing himself that he was 'helping' the Bajorans. But a Cardassian woman - how would be possibly be able to justify this to himself and see himself as a magnanimous hero?

I. AM. NOT. BUYING. IT.

It seems that the entire Pah-wraiths thing (which was stupid in itself, but still kind of could have worked as far as his characterization goes, I guess) is not enough, and that some writers' idea of writing Dukat is "let's see how eeeeeevil we can make Dukat". So Dukat is a bad guy - that means he'd do literally anything evil we can possibly think of, right? Because that's what bad guys do? WRONG. People do things that they are inclined and motivated to do. Characters in fiction should do things based on their characterization - not do bad things that don't make sense just because you have decided you want the audience, or in this case, the readers, to hate them.

There is a good reason why novels are not canon. With all due respect to some wonderful authors out there, including those who visit this forum, Star Trek novels are, essentially, glorified fanfiction. Some of them are excellent - but then, I've also read some excellent fanfics. Unless I am mistaken (and please correct me if I am wrong), novel writers, just like fanfic writers, are free to come up with just about anything, without having to consult a bunch of other writers, showrunners, producers...and convince them that it would work, make sense, be a good story. You also don't have to worry that you'll encounter any opposition from the actors (who often take their characters more seriously and care about the integrity of their characters more than the writers do) - in literature, character assassinations are so much easier, since there is no resistance.


As for those people who argue that this plot makes Dukat/Kira/Kira's mother plots more disturbing.. oh please, is this even necessary?! Wasn't Dukat/Meru relationship - and Dukat/Nerys - already disturbing enough? And IMO, even more so because Dukat was not a one-dimensional monster and Meru was hard to classify as either a simple victim or collaborator? In a way, I thought what Dukat did to women like Meru and their families was more disturbing on some level than it would have been if he was simply raping them or openly treating them as sex slaves as we've seen his subordinates do, because an emotional manipulation that we've seen goes so much deeper, morally and emotionally, compromising them and creating a gap between them and their families and their people in the way that would not have happened if they were simply rape victims without any responsability for what happened to them. If Meru had hated being Dukat's mistress, Kira might have seen her as someone who was sacrificing herself for her family, and probably would not have come to hate her mother and consider her a collaborator. I'd always rather have moral ambiguity and emotional complexity over black-and-white 'evil monster tortures helpless victim' stories. The latter, IMO, is just playing it safe, and making it simpler and more comfortable for people who don't like to think much.

 

[JD]

Actually the authors can't do whatever they want, everything they write has to be approved by both the editor, as of a this year Margaret Clark, at Pocket Books, and then once it gets through them it has to be approved by Paula Block at CBS Studios (formerly Paramount). And while they don't have to be passed through the other authors, they do often cooperate whenever they are doing crossovers.

As for Dukat, I pretty much just thought of it as him taking advantage of being able to have another Kira Nerys who nobody else knew about. Sure it was shocking, but IMO we've seen Dukat use and manipulate before and I really think this was simply those situations taken to an extreme. Ok, I'll admit I don't usually anaylze stuff that I read. If it doesn't completely strike me as wrong I just accept it and move on, and that was what I did here.

 

[DevilEyes]

Actually the authors can't do whatever they want, everything they write has to be approved by both the editor, as of a this year Margaret Clark, at Pocket Books, and then once it gets through them it has to be approved by Paula Block at CBS Studios (formerly Paramount). And while they don't have to be passed through the other authors, they do often cooperate whenever they are doing crossovers.

I don't see Paramount or the editors objecting that much or having to be convinced about storylines and characterizations the way that other writers on the show or actors need to be.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

I was fine with it: I didn't think it detracted from Dukat's character at all, or contradicted his portrayal on TV. Dukat is clearly insane, and this predated Ziyal's loss. The more we saw of him, the more it became apparent there was something seriously...damaged...about him. One of my favourite scenes in DS9 is the Dukat-Weyoun exchange early in season six, where Dukat is explaining his perception of a "true victory", as well as making another "I loved and protected the Bajorans" speech. The way this scene played out always gave me the strong impression that Dukat was truly insane, and that we were only now truly seeing him, and what had... gone wrong. Dukat is Cardassian; his mind works on multiple levels at once. In his case, though, that model has malfunctioned, and his various layers were clearly no longer working as an integrated whole. I had no problem with accepting the Iliana Ghemor arc in light of this; the idea that one of those layers was a completely detached, depraved part of his mind that might occasionally come to the fore.

 

[DevilEyes]

I was fine with it: I didn't think it detracted from Dukat's character at all, or contradicted his portrayal on TV. Dukat is clearly insane, and this predated Ziyal's loss. The more we saw of him, the more it became apparent there was something seriously...damaged...about him. One of my favourite scenes in DS9 is the Dukat-Weyoun exchange early in season six, where Dukat is explaining his perception of a "true victory", as well as making another "I loved and protected the Bajorans" speech. The way this scene played out always gave me the strong impression that Dukat was truly insane, and that we were only now truly seeing him, and what had... gone wrong. Dukat is Cardassian; his mind works on multiple levels at once. In his case, though, that model has malfunctioned, and his various layers were clearly no longer working as an integrated whole. I had no problem with accepting the Iliana Ghemor arc in light of this; the idea that one of those layers was a completely detached, depraved part of his mind that might occasionally come to the fore.

Damaged... yes. Self-deluded, definitely, but no more than many other people who do awful things while finding ways to justify it to themselves. (Most criminals function like that; except for true psychopaths, who don't even need to come up with any justifications because they just don't care about morality at all.) But actually insane, all those years? That I find hard to believe. "I protected the Bajorans" is classic pre-insanity Dukat. "I hate the Bajorans and I want to kill them all" is something that could have been lurking deep inside, but that we've never seen come out until "Waltz".

 

[Stevil2001]

Actually the authors can't do whatever they want, everything they write has to be approved by both the editor, as of a this year Margaret Clark, at Pocket Books, and then once it gets through them it has to be approved by Paula Block at CBS Studios (formerly Paramount). And while they don't have to be passed through the other authors, they do often cooperate whenever they are doing crossovers.

I don't see Paramount or the editors objecting that much or having to be convinced about storylines and characterizations the way that other writers on the show or actors need to be.

Do you think that if objections and re-toolings were happening, you would be privy to them?