Favorite Enterprise and why?

[The Wormhole]

no holographic rec rooms,

There are if you count TAS.

No, the Enterprise was not a warship but a deep space exploration vessel on a 5 year mission. It's secondary role was to defend (key word) Federation territories.

It's armament was always defensive.

And it wasn't fancy because it was the first one with a basic no frills layout.

The Enterprise represented the UFP.

This very discussion is going on in another thread at the moment. But basically, Starfleet is military. That is what was intended when TOS began, the Enterprise was essentially a US Navy ship in space. Their mission being exploration means nothing, back when exploration was a thing in the past it was handled by the military, and even today a large percentage of astronauts and even directors of NASA are active-duty military officers.

Also, the Enterprise's weapons are not just defensive, it has offensive capabilities. True, they typically only go into combat to defend themselves, but believe it or not even today most militaries prefer to leave use of force as a last resort, and typically only fight to defend themselves.

What was Kirk's and Picard's war records and commendations?

Kirk's commendations were read off in Court Martial, and off the top of my head Picard has a combat maneuver named after him.

 

[Six of Twelve]

Be hard to interpret that as anything but wrong.
.

Excuuuuuuse me? If I need to specify American carriers, I will. The USS Ranger, CV4 was indeed the first American carrier to be built from the keel up as a carrier and not converted from another type of ship. Feel free to look it up.

 

[Thot Tnak]

Excuuuuuuse me? If I need to specify American carriers, I will. The USS Ranger, CV4 was indeed the first American carrier to be built from the keel up as a carrier and not converted from another type of ship. Feel free to look it up.

Yeah, you need to because saying first with Ranger is flat-out wrong historically.

Japanese Hosho was first from the keel up in 1922... long before Ranger.

Hosho:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...Japanese_aircraft_carrier_Hōshō_Tokyo_Bay.jpg

 

[Six of Twelve]

Yeah, you need to because saying first with Ranger is flat-out wrong historically.

Japanese Hosho was first from the keel up in 1922... long before Ranger.

Hosho:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...Japanese_aircraft_carrier_Hōshō_Tokyo_Bay.jpg

As I said in a previous post, I was never speaking internationally.

 

[TwoJakes]

Look, you made a general statement that others (correctly) pointed out was in error.

Daddy told you something that was at best short of the truth, there's no Santa Claus either.

 

[JesterFace]

For me the Enterprise-D symbolises Star Trek the most, probably because it was the ship that appeared in all episodes of TNG in the late 90s when I had my 1st contact with Trek.

 

[J.T.B.]

No, the Enterprise was not a warship but a deep space exploration vessel on a 5 year mission. It's secondary role was to defend (key word) Federation territories.

More like a warship that could also be used for exploration. If a ship that takes part in "war game" exercises is not a warship, I don't know what it is.

Naval vessels taking on "non-military" roles and missions was once quite common. I have posted this in another thread, but here is what a US Navy board wrote about requirements for cruisers in 1881:

Taking into proper consideration the various requirements of the different squadrons for surveying, deep-sea sounding, protection and advancement of American commerce, exploration, protection of American life and property endangered by wars between foreign countries, and service in support of American policy in matters where foreign governments are concerned, forty three unarmored cruising vessels are required constantly in commission.​

 

[Thot Tnak]

More like a warship that could also be used for exploration. If a ship that takes part in "war game" exercises is not a warship, I don't know what it is.

Naval vessels taking on "non-military" roles and missions was once quite common. I have posted this in another thread, but here is what a US Navy board wrote about requirements for cruisers in 1881:

Taking into proper consideration the various requirements of the different squadrons for surveying, deep-sea sounding, protection and advancement of American commerce, exploration, protection of American life and property endangered by wars between foreign countries, and service in support of American policy in matters where foreign governments are concerned, forty three unarmored cruising vessels are required constantly in commission.​

Sorry, but the TOS intro about the Enterprise mission is of exploration and both Kirk and Picard in many episodes explain that the Enterprise is a scientific/exploration vessel.

As I mentioned earlier with the Malcorian example, Picard said verbatim that the Enterprise was NOT a warship.

The Primary mission is exploration and the Secondary mission is to DEFEND UFP territories and the ship itself.

Btw, linking naval military history to final frontier space exploration is not accurate. If a military vessel, Enterprise would be spartan and communication would be strictly military, not casual. The Commander would also be free to initiate hostilities which Starfleet forbids...

 

[The Wormhole]

If a military vessel, Enterprise would be spartan and communication would be strictly military, not casual.

But even warships today aren't "Spartan." US aircraft carriers have shipboard bowling alleys and movie theatres. Why couldn't Starfleet ships have services to entertain its crew?

Also worth noting, the backstory for Kirk mentioned he had worked his way up the ranks serving on frigates and destroyers, both are military types of ships. Hell one wonders why an organization whose primary purpose is exploration even operates ships known as destroyers.

The Commander would also be free to initiate hostilities which Starfleet forbids...

Even in today's militaries a CO who initiates hostilities without orders would be relieved of command and investigated, possibly even court martialed.

 

[Thot Tnak]

From a mission perspective:

In 2265, the Enterprise was assigned to a five-year mission of deep-space exploration, and command passed to James T. Kirk. The ship's primary goal during this mission was to seek out and contact alien life. Captain Kirk's standing orders also included the investigation of all quasars and quasar-like phenomena.

Beyond her primary mission, the Enterprise defended Federation territories from aggression, aided member worlds in crisis, and provided scientific expeditions and colonies in her patrol area with annual examinations and support.

~ Memory Alpha

 

[J.T.B.]

Sorry, but the TOS intro about the Enterprise mission is of exploration and both Kirk and Picard in many episodes explain that the Enterprise is a scientific/exploration vessel.

Kirk who said "I'm a soldier, not a diplomat"? Picard who participated in war games and led a number of purely military missions?

The intro is about a five year mission, nothing about what comes before or after. And even during the mission they kept being sent on non-exploring and "military" assignments. And again, four starships are practicing war games, that makes them de facto warships no matter what they might be called officially.

Btw, linking naval military history to final frontier space exploration is not accurate.

Why not? The oceans were once the final frontier, and navies were extensively involved in exploring and surveying it. And OS writers were encouraged to think of Enterprise as a warship. The Writer's Guide, 1967:

The mission of the U.S.S. Enterprise? Isn't it something like that of, say, English warships at the turn of the century?

Very close. As you recall, in those days vessels of the major powers were assigned to sectors of various oceans, where they represented their government there. Out of contact with the Admiralty for long periods, the captains of such vessels had broad discretionary powers in regulating trade, bush wars, putting down slavery, assisting scientific investigations and geological surveys, even to becoming involved in relatively minor items like searching for a lost explorer or school mistress.​

What happened in "Errand of Mercy" is a like a page right out of a classic pre-WW2 naval playbook: War breaks out, a cruiser already overseas switches from a peacetime to wartime role and moves to counter enemy operations in a certain area.

The Commander would also be free to initiate hostilities which Starfleet forbids...

I have no idea what this refers to. Military commanders are not authorized to initiate hostilities except according to orders from their national authority. I would definitely not say they are "free" to initiate hostilities.

 

[Paul Weaver]

As I said in a previous post, I was never speaking internationally.

In my experience if an American saying "the first", or "the biggest", or similar, and does not include "in the world", they are almost always talking about just the USA. Some call it arogance, some call it cultural blindness. We have the same thing in the UK, where people in London just think "London" and forget about the wider world. I can't see anything in his post to make me think that didn't apply here.

Also worth noting, the backstory for Kirk mentioned he had worked his way up the ranks serving on frigates and destroyers, both are military types of ships. Hell one wonders why an organization whose primary purpose is exploration even operates ships known as destroyers.

Same reason that there's something called general order 24.

 

[The Wormhole]

^^Because Starfleet really is a military.

 

[Thot Tnak]

^^Because Starfleet really is a military.

No, it's part of a peaceful United Federation of planets and all reputable reference books on the Enterprise say it is a scientific exploration vessel meant to seek out new life , new civilizations, and go where... do I really need to repeat the Intro?

But if you want to mentally masturbate with others on this topic, go ahead.

Just because the Enterprise is capable of waging war doesn't mean it was built as a warship. Starfleet means exactly that- a fleet of vessels able to explore the stars. It can also patrol Federation Space, but so what???

NFR

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Just because Starfleet is the military, doesn't preclude it from also being other things. Exploration, diplomacy, science, etc., are examples of this.

It's like I keep saying: Starfleet is military, but it is not militaristic.

(And by this I mean the Federation Starfleet. That's what's military. Earth Starfleet is not, but the UFP Starfleet is. They're different organizations which happen to share a name.)

 

[The Wormhole]

It can also patrol Federation Space, but so what???

So that makes it military.

 

[BillJ]

No, it's part of a peaceful United Federation of planets and all reputable reference books on the Enterprise say it is a scientific exploration vessel meant to seek out new life , new civilizations, and go where... do I really need to repeat the Intro?

It seems you really aren't paying attention to the actual content of the various series.

Who gets sent to fight the wars? In every incarnation of Star Trek that I've seen, it is Starfleet. Klingons attacking a colony? Starfleet is sent. Romulans violating the Neutral Zone? Starfleet is sent. Borg headed for Earth? Starfleet is assembled to stop it. Dominion comes screaming through the Bajoran Wormhole? Starfleet is there to attempt to stop it.

There is no mention of any other military arm of the Federation. In the episode "The Siege of AR-558" it is Starfleet that is defending the outpost and rotating personnel and supplies.

Heck, Starfleet even has General Order 24 which authorizes a starship captain to destroy the habitable surface of a planet.

Starfleet is the military arm of the UFP. There's simply no debate to be had.

 

[BillJ]

From a mission perspective:

In 2265, the Enterprise was assigned to a five-year mission of deep-space exploration, and command passed to James T. Kirk. The ship's primary goal during this mission was to seek out and contact alien life. Captain Kirk's standing orders also included the investigation of all quasars and quasar-like phenomena.

Beyond her primary mission, the Enterprise defended Federation territories from aggression, aided member worlds in crisis, and provided scientific expeditions and colonies in her patrol area with annual examinations and support.

~ Memory Alpha

"I'm a soldier, not a diplomat" - Captain James T. Kirk, "Errand of Mercy"

Then you have Starfleet supporting his decision to confront the Romulans in "Balance of Terror".

RAND: We finally received an answer from Command base, sir. They say they'll support whatever decision you have to make.

 

[Thot Tnak]

So in TNG "First Contact" when Picard tells Chancellor Durken ( a Malcorian) that the Enterprise was NOT a warship (verbatim), was he lying???

And save the Kirk references. There are so many episodes where he tells alien life that the Enterprise was a scientific vessel. Was he lying???

 

[BillJ]

So in TNG "First Contact" when Picard tells Chancellor Durken ( a Malcorian) that the Enterprise was NOT a warship (verbatim), was he lying???

Searching the transcript for "First Contact", there is nowhere Picard mentions "warship". So did he state it in some other manner? Riker states they are on a "mission of peace", but that doesn't preclude them from being the military. Militaries have taken on many different kinds of missions, if you look in history books.

http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/189.htm

And save the Kirk references. There are so many episodes where he tells alien life that the Enterprise was a scientific vessel. Was he lying???

Whether you like it or not, the military is about more than fighting wars. When asked in "Tomorrow is Yesterday" if Starfleet is the Navy, Kirk replies they are a combined service.

Starfleet fights the wars, Starfleet has military ranks, Starfleet has court-martials (heck, it is even the name of an episode). If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck... it is usually a duck. My sole question: if Starfleet isn't the military arm of the Federation, then who is?