Far Beyond the Stars + the alternate DS9 ending

[digger]

As I much as I think it would have been a cool way to end the series had they gone the route of Benny Russel on the Paramount sound stage, if it actually did happen, I don't think I would have liked it as much.

It's a cool idea to think about only because it *didn't* happen.

 

[MikeS]

^ But the fact remains, within the fictional reality presented by the show, only one character - Russell or Sisko - can be real. Either Russell is dreaming up Sisko, or Sisko is dreaming up Russell. Logically speaking, both cannot be the case simultaneously.

I don't see that we have to make such an "either/or" choice. The episodes where Benny Russell appears intentionally blur the lines so there is no way to identify one character as more real than the other. The ending of FBtS is pretty explicit on this point: maybe I just dreamed up Benny, or maybe Benny is out there somewhere dreaming of us.

And then again in Shadows and Symbols: the scripts for DS9 episodes are scrawled on the walls of Benny's cell and he is just trying to "finish the story." And when he writes that "Sisko opens the orb box thing," that's exactly what Sisko does. So Benny could just be a vision of Sisko's, or it could all be a story being told by Benny. Either interpretation works fine, it just depends on how you look at it.

I thought this too. Which is why I voted "Benny is real" and "DS9 is real"

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

If the DS9 characters are able to stand around and wonder if Benny is dreaming them into existence, then by definition, he isn't. To anyone reading this message, no one's dreaming YOU, since if they were, you wouldn't be there.

Although the TZ episode "Shadow Play" and the US version of Life on Mars might disagree...

 

[MikeS]

If the DS9 characters are able to stand around and wonder if Benny is dreaming them into existence, then by definition, he isn't. To anyone reading this message, no one's dreaming YOU, since if they were, you wouldn't be there.

Although the TZ episode "Shadow Play" and the US version of Life on Mars might disagree...

How do I know I'm not dreaming you saying that? Or vice-versa?!

 

[Trek Survivor]

I didn't like this one. I know loads of people did, and most of the actors say it was wonderful etc etc... to me it was just not good.

 

[flemm]

If the DS9 characters are able to stand around and wonder if Benny is dreaming them into existence, then by definition, he isn't.

That is an odd reasoning, given that the DS9 characters are definitely not real, regardless of Benny Russell's involvement in the series. Somebody is dreaming them into existence. As it happens, it's not Benny, but Benny is a device that calls attention to the DS9 characters' fictional nature and asks some interesting questions about what that fiction might mean and why it might be important.

"I think, therefore I am" applies to actual people because we are actually thinking, actually conscious (not fictionally thinking and fictionally conscious). It doesn't apply to fictional characters, though. If an author wanted to write about a fictional character who is aware of his fictional nature (and even precisely aware of the identity of the author creating him), then there is nothing stopping an author from doing precisely that. That doesn't make the character any more or less fictional, though.

Benny Russell places Sisko basically about halfway between the standard fictional character's mindset (no awareness of his identity as a fictional character) and the situation described above (full awareness of exactly who the author is).

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

If the DS9 characters are able to stand around and wonder if Benny is dreaming them into existence, then by definition, he isn't.

That is an odd reasoning, given that the DS9 characters are definitely not real, regardless of Benny Russell's involvement in the series. Somebody is dreaming them into existence.

In the context of the fictional universe of Star Trek, they definitely are real.

Unlike this:

Spoiler: another show

Babylon 5, which if you believe the closing credits of the final episode, is a 'holodeck'-ish re-creation created by the Rangers.

 

[pimp]

Personally I would have totaly hated it if they ended it on some kind of mad mans fantasy it would have been awful I am glad that it did not turn out this way and that Benny Russel is prob the made up dream and not star trek (yes I know in reality all of it is :P )

And I agree about traveling back, I hate all the Star trek episodes where they go back in time to our timeline its pointless, because people watch the show to get an idea of the future not look backwards. this is one of the issues I think Enterprise had because it looking back (I end it there before it goes off topic)

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

I loved the episode and I prefer the "alternate series ending." Benny is real...er.