My pet theory: It will impede their own "fanon" (I hate that word and concept) assumptions so it upsets them.
Sharr
Fanwank
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My pet theory: It will impede their own "fanon" (I hate that word and concept) assumptions so it upsets them.
Sharr
Of course, to a very great number of the people that the producers are hoping will see this film, the fan-friendly references will be close to invisible.
Such as...the Kobyashi Maru.
Even most people who know who Kirk and Spock are would be hard-pressed to tell you anything about the Kobyashi Maru - if they saw TWOK they might remember the cheating story. It's not like most anyone other than Trekkies have seen the movie more than once or twice, or at any recent time.
Hell, they won't give a thought to whether Kirk and Spock were at the Academy at the same time - after all, it makes complete sense that they would be. And having their first encounter being as confrontational and dramatic as having Spock call Kirk out for cheating on an Academy exam will seem to be just that - dramatic and confrontational. In other words, good and interesting and unexpected.
If scenes like that evoke anything for the hypothetical "new" or "unfamiliar" viewer that the producers are chasing, they're likely to be reminded of much more popular mainstream fare like "An Officer And A Gentleman" than of an old Trek movie many of them have never seen.
Things that might be intended as "fanwank" by people who were making a movie for Trekkies aren't that when they're making a movie for new viewers.
Such as...the Kobyashi Maru.
Even most people who know who Kirk and Spock are would be hard-pressed to tell you anything about the Kobyashi Maru - if they saw TWOK they might remember the cheating story. It's not like most anyone other than Trekkies have seen the movie more than once or twice, or at any recent time.
Hell, they won't give a thought to whether Kirk and Spock were at the Academy at the same time - after all, it makes complete sense that they would be. And having their first encounter being as confrontational and dramatic as having Spock call Kirk out for cheating on an Academy exam will seem to be just that - dramatic and confrontational. In other words, good and interesting and unexpected.
If scenes like that evoke anything for the hypothetical "new" or "unfamiliar" viewer that the producers are chasing, they're likely to be reminded of much more popular mainstream fare like "An Officer And A Gentleman" than of an old Trek movie many of them have never seen.
Things that might be intended as "fanwank" by people who were making a movie for Trekkies aren't that when they're making a movie for new viewers.
Ah...I think you hit the nail on the head with that theory.
Nobody will ever complain about "fanwank" if it fits their own narrow-minded view about what Trek continuity should be. Anybody who screams "fanwank" is in effect demanding that all of Trek conform to their own personal view.
It's like when ENT was on, and all that bitching about T'Pol joining Starfleet. "Waaaah! Spock was the first Vulcan in Starfleet! Waaaah! Waaaah!" When in fact NO SUCH THING WAS EVER ESTABLISHED.
Ditto with the first contact between Earth and the Klingons.
^ I don't see insult, if we take "fanwank" to mean any bit of a film that's stuck in purely to appease the hardcore fans, which adds nothing to the narrative (and more often than not detracts from it).
See the first few Harry Potter movies to see serious fanwank at work.
See the first few Harry Potter movies to see serious fanwank at work.
I have, not having read the source material I wouldn't know what the wankish bits were, nonetheless I was entertained - which goes to another stated point you need to be in the know for any such thing to be a little distracting.
Sharr
Whether or not a scene supposedly exists "just to please the hardcore fans" is completely subjective. And even so, why is this a bad thing? The fans *will* recognize it, and anyone who isn't a fan won't care.
... from what I can tell it's interesting the writer found a great conflict that needs no fanwank knowledge to 'get', it's easily understandable. I agree, this is sorta brilliant of the writers. Goes to show their general knowledge of the canon is used with great creativity. Nice work I say.
As for the term 'fanwank', I believe it was a fan who came up with the word in the first place and frankly he was a wanker. But it's handy when describing the latest slash stories or kitbashes bristling with numerous nacelles.
As for the term 'fanwank', I believe it was a fan who came up with the word in the first place and frankly he was a wanker. But it's handy when describing the latest slash stories or kitbashes bristling with numerous nacelles.
Right, with the caveat that if the filmmakers are going to spend any time on it, the bit ought to add value to the film for non-fans. In other words, it ought to be the kind of scene or detail that fits in a movie and adds to the experience, rather than a "blank" moment for the uninitiated.
This is why the Kobyashi Maru is a brilliant inclusion. If you're going to dramatize the characters' time at the Academy, what kind of events actually enhance the energy and conflict and interest of those sequences while making maximum use of the nature of each character? Something like "Spock is assigned as Kirk's tutor and helps him cram for an astrophysics exam" is a weak cliche, at best suited to a brief 80s musical montage of some sort (get Bill Conti to score it). So the Hell what?
As described, the "cheating" sequence builds a strong conflict while delineating everything that differs between these two characters from the very beginning. It's good stuff - at the very least competent, which is refreshing in itself - even if the viewer has never heard of these guys.
"See the first few Harry Potter movies to see serious fanwank at work."
What has gone before:
"nuDr. Who, nuBSG, DS9, TAS, ST novels, ST comix, aren't faithful to the original, therefore they S U C K therefore...Star Trek XI will too!
"
:insert Harry Potter: :thumbsup:
oh wait...
:insert Batman Begins:
:insert The Dark Knight:
:insert Iron Man:
:insert...
What has gone before:
"nuDr. Who, nuBSG, DS9, TAS, ST novels, ST comix, aren't faithful to the original, therefore they S U C K therefore...Star Trek XI will too!
":insert Harry Potter: :thumbsup:
oh wait...
:insert Batman Begins:
:insert The Dark Knight:
:insert Iron Man:
:insert...
S
Stone_Cold_Sisko
Guest
It sure sounds fanwanky so far, Romulans going back in time to kill a young Kirk, Leonard Nimoy as Grandpa Spock (only one movie away from Star Trek 12: So... Very..... Tired)? ... will wait and see though, JJ seems like the sort of person who can coax out a cool movie even with these premises.
Don't take the "leaked plot" given to us by AICN as gospel. And don't put it past JJ Abrams to leak MISINFORMATION, either...
In a world where movies can be ruined by leaked scripts and so forth, and often are... maybe the best way to counter that is to "leak" a variety of contradictory, inconsistent, and illogical bits. The audience won't know WHAT to believe... so the movie will still be able to surprise!
In the immortal words of Pogo: "We have met the enemy, and he is us,".
blockaderunner said:
I'll give loooong odds nobody but me (MAYBE one or two others, but them thar's LONG odds!) here got your reference. Anybody else familiar? Anyone? Anyone? Buehler? Buehler?
You do realize that virtually NOBODY reading this knows who Pogo was. (I know, mainly because my dad kept his collection of Pogo books and when he died, I read all of 'em.)
I'll give loooong odds nobody but me (MAYBE one or two others, but them thar's LONG odds!) here got your reference. Anybody else familiar? Anyone? Anyone? Buehler? Buehler?
I can't recall ever reading Pogo aside from maybe an odd strip here or there, but I am familiar with what it is. I doubt I'm the only other one around here. I think this is a fairly hip crowd.
I don't see how incorporating familiar Trek elements into a film is considered fanwank. As long as they aren't out of place or feel forced in orderto just namedrop then I see no problem with it so long as they serve the story and not the other way around.
In facct, I never really understood the criticisms toward Manny Coto's season four of Enterprise. Sure there was a great deal of referencing TOS elements(and to a lesser extent TNG/DS9) but it didn't detract but instead enhanced the stories and made sense in the context.
I don't see why this isn't the case with the new film. Personally, I;m going to reserve judgment until I've actually seen the final product in theatres before criticizing.
In facct, I never really understood the criticisms toward Manny Coto's season four of Enterprise. Sure there was a great deal of referencing TOS elements(and to a lesser extent TNG/DS9) but it didn't detract but instead enhanced the stories and made sense in the context.
I don't see why this isn't the case with the new film. Personally, I;m going to reserve judgment until I've actually seen the final product in theatres before criticizing.
Isn't the very act of John Q. Public determining what is "needed for the story", by definition, fanwank?
I never read the comic (except maybe a few strips), but I am familiar with it...I'm pretty sure it put the 'Okeefenokee Swamp' (sp?) on the map and made that place a household word. Pogo himself was a possum, I think, and his best friend was an alligator.
That's about all I know about the characters -- but I DO know that 'Pogo' was famous (and sometime infamous) for being a very politically charged comic strip with a liberal-minded slant. It was the "Doonesbury" of its time.
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