Poll Fantastic Beasts: The Crimes of Grindelwald (SPOILERS)

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by .:: TSN ::., Nov 14, 2018.

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Rating?

  1. A+

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. A

    3 vote(s)
    13.0%
  3. A-

    4 vote(s)
    17.4%
  4. B+

    1 vote(s)
    4.3%
  5. B

    4 vote(s)
    17.4%
  6. B-

    7 vote(s)
    30.4%
  7. C

    2 vote(s)
    8.7%
  8. D

    2 vote(s)
    8.7%
  9. F

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. May 20

    May 20 Consumer of cookies and milk Premium Member

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    Oh, I understand what you're saying. And I agree, to some extent. Queenie is supposed to be "people-smart", so it's sad to me that she gets sucked into Grindewald's web of misdirection. Yes, smart people can and do make bad decisions, and I accept that, both in life and in stories. I understand, from a writer's viewpoint, why she was the one chosen to defect. And I understand, from a character viewpoint, why she chose to go with Grindewald. But my understanding and acceptance don't wipe out the urge to give her a good shake to try to bring her to her senses before it's too late.
     
  2. The Borgified Corpse

    The Borgified Corpse Admiral Admiral

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    I loved the first Fantastic Beasts but I couldn't stand this one. Way too many plot & character threads. Way too unfocused. I'm sure that there's a decent movie to be made about the conflict between Dumbledore & Grindlewald. I'd also love to see a follow-up featuring the characters from the previous movie. I just don't think they belong in the same movie. Much as I love Queenie & Jacob, they really have no business being in this movie. I also didn't like how they hand-waved both Credence's death and Jacob's obliviating from the previous film. And as someone who hasn't read the books and who only saw the previous movie once, I'm not sufficiently invested in the lore to be able to follow anything about the Leta Lestrange storyline or why I should care about it.

    I'm getting pretty tired with how apparently we're supposed to filter every single movie & TV show first through the lens of how offended we should be by it or by the actors in it, and only then decide whether or not we actually like it for its artistic merits. Personally, I'd make a movie starring Jeffrey Jones & O.J. Simpson if I thought they were right for the part.

    Aww! I liked Paris. He elevated several of the drearier Voyager episodes. :D
     
  3. Saul

    Saul Vice Admiral Admiral

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    What a disappointed of a film. I had hope after the first movie they might give us some story here but again it's just setting up the next sequel. We have another 3 movies of this to go before we get anywhere. I'm really not interested to wait until 2024 to see how this plays out. A Hogwarts prequel would have been more interesting.
     
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  4. JanewayRulz!

    JanewayRulz! Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I didn't get a chance to see this in the theater (That flying stage coach scene much have been awesome on the big screen) but have watched the dvd a couple times this week and honestly like this movie.



    That twist with Queenie was a shocker, but not as "impossible" as some have argued. Her first conversations in London with Newt and the then "no longer enchanted" Jacob were very telling.

    First... she and Tina were not talking.

    That's a huge deal.

    Queenie and Tina are orphans thanks to the Dragon Pox (IIRC) and Tina is Queenie's only family. "We have each other" Queenie explained to Newt and Jacob in that small NYC apartment last year, but as of this moment in time they don't "have each other". In fact she is alone. Tina has left for Paris and Jacob keeps resisting her plans to add him officially to their family.

    "Why is it wrong to marry me? To want to have a family? I just want what every one else has, that's all."

    So now that Queenie no longer "has" Jacob, she runs to Paris. To the only family she has left, the disapproving Tina. But once there she finds Tina is MIA and she's truly alone. Alone in a foreign city, unable to speak the language and uncertain where else to go. She thinks she hears Jacob and Newt but as she stretches her mind to find them, all she hears is the cacophony of thousands of unintelligible voices and sinks down in despair, unable to blot them out.

    Until someone reaches out a hand and asks if she's alright, in that language she can't understand but in a tone that is gentle and sympathetic.

    Queenie needs a respite but she's also a New Yorker so she is initially mistrustful of the aggressive teapot and its owner, even now that she speaks English.

    "You see, I can't tell if you're making a joke or if you're just... French."

    I loved that the first thing our Queenie does when she sees Grindlewald is pull her wand!

    "You stay right there. I know what you are."

    But the former "Auror Percival Graves" knows this woman too and the seduction begins.

    You are so very very far away from home. Far away from everything you love, everything that is comfortable. I would never see you harmed. Ever.

    And the wedge between her and her rock (Tina) is gently placed.

    It is not your fault that your sister is an auror. I wish you were working with me now, towards a world where we wizards were free to live openly. To love freely.

    Then he hooks her... by setting her free.

    You are an innocent. So go now. Leave this place.


    Poor Queenie, she's still alone in the French city, unable to speak the language, unsure where to go and her sister's arch enemy has just freed her without conditions but with a thought that soothes her.

    Live openly and love freely. In New York, with Jacob and Tina wouldn't have to disapprove.

    We started Queenie's sojourn with her clumsy attempt to enchant Jacob, but little did she realize she herself would become enchanted with a master at the craft until she too became "deeply committed".

    Everyone in this movie is searching.

    Leta for absolution for her monstrous soul. Creedance for knowledge about his origins. Newt, Queenie, Tina and Jacob for the people right in front of them, Grindlewald for someone to kill Dumbledore and release him from their blood vow, and Albus for a way to break that same blood vow and loosen the hold his constant companion (regret) has upon his heart.

    The "problem" with the 2nd movie in a series is that by nature it cannot be a stand alone story. It has to lay groundwork to catapult us to the next chapter. Our problem is there are not any novels out there, released 2-3 years before the film was made, to fill us in on all the wonderful details that fleshed out the story, details we will later complain about vociferously when they are inevitably left OUT of the movies (Peeves the poltergeist) due to time constraints.

    I did like this movie and can't wait for the next.



    I have chosen my side.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2019
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  5. The Nth Doctor

    The Nth Doctor Infinite Possibilities... Premium Member

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    JanewayRulz!, that's a great breakdown of Queenie's situation and by far the best explanation I've seen. With that in mind, I might be more open to her change now and I'll have to keep it in mind the next time I eatch the film to see if her switching sides sits better with me.
     
  6. JanewayRulz!

    JanewayRulz! Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I think I had the benefit of seeing it a couple times (with subtitles) this week, plus I read through this thread before seeing it the last time so I could see what other people were talking about.



    I "kinda" understood that folks were upset over Queenie's "defection" since Queenie was one of my favs from the first movie.



    But I also remembered something Renee O'connor (?) once said about XenaWP. TPTB liked to end a break or a cliffhanger with the two protagnonists separated and they had to battle their way back to one another.

    JKR often did something similar in her HP series. Every movie seemed to have someone on the outs from the main trio, whether Hermionee in I when she was "the smart girl" or in II while she was petrified, or Ron in III when he and Hermionee were fighting over Scabbers and Crookshanks, or Ron in IV when he was mad at Harry over the Triwizards championship. Then Harry was mad at Ron and Hermionee for keeping him in the dark all summer before book 5. In 6 Harry was being secretive about the potions book and Hermionee was mad at Lothario Ron and of course in book 7 when Ron was mad at Harry and Hermionee and left them both for several weeks while they were horcrux hunting.

    I just hope and pray they don't keep Queenie and Tina much less Jacob separated for the next 19 years!



    On second thought... taking Queenie away from Tina may end being one of Grindlewald's biggest mistakes!

    That and NOT killing Newt when he had the chance.



    Then again... like Voldemort, Grindlewald doesn't seem to understand the nature of things he considers simple.
     
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  7. Hela

    Hela Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    That’s part of the issue.

    Difference is, Queenie defected to Wizard Hitler. Who she knows had tried to kill her sister and Newt, tortured Creedence, and helped beat the shit out of NY less than a year earlier. Oh, and she’s helping Grindelwald manipulate the magic atom-bomb that is Creedence in her last scene.

    All of which is fairly...unforgivable. It’s a Big Effing Deal. The sort of move that entire movies ( and philosophy textbooks, natch) are devoted to merely contemplating if it’s even possible to be redeemed from it. Hell, Man in The High Castle has an almost identical plot line for a main character that lasts three seasons, and still ends with ‘probably not.’

    Hell, Harry Potter has done it before with the Malfoy’s. And that plotline notably didn’t end with Draco (whose reasons for his decisions are far better sketched than Queenie’s, and is punished a lot for his mistakes) being welcomed back as the main group’s BFF.

    And yet as you point out, it’s being treated much the same as Ron being angry at Hermione because (they think) her cat escaped and ate his pet rat. And will probably have just as simple resolution. Which is just...no.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2019
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  8. JanewayRulz!

    JanewayRulz! Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I understand the anger/angst of many fans over this infuriating plot line.

    But after 7 books over 10 years with overlapping plot lines and multiple clues scattered in such a way that when Deathly Hallows ended I immediately reread the final 100 pages, then reread all 7 books in order...after all that I have come to trust JKR with her creations.

    When season 1 of "Once Upon a TIme" neared its end, I remember a great hullabaloo from step-parents and adopted children about the horrible disservice the producers were doing by showcasing the common story telling trope of the "wicked" step mother.

    Weren't they surprised as each of the next 6 seasons unfolded!

    Remember what JKR has said about this film... at the end of the movie, what you THINK you know, probably isn't what you think.

    Loved these FB:CoG quotes.

    https://www.hypable.com/fantastic-beasts-crimes-of-grindelwald-quotes/

    1926-1927 are an interesting couple of years to start this series.

    WWI ended in 1918, killing 20 million and wounding another 21 million. (There were only 103 million residing in the USA that year.)

    Also, 1918 was the year of the Great Spanish Flu pandemic that killed 20-50 million world wide, 650,000 in the US alone. More people died of the flu in the USA than lived in Nevada, Arizona and Delaware combined.

    1927 was 6 years after a post WW recession, the flapper era was going strong and the stock market crash/great depression were still 2 years away.

    Such a tumultuous time for a young woman to find herself in.

    Here's Alison's take on Queenie's plot line.

    https://ew.com/movies/2018/11/20/crimes-of-grindelwald-alison-sudol-queenie/

    I wonder if we will ever get to see Newt kiss Tina?

    No, the answer is not in this next interview

    https://ew.com/movies/2018/10/16/jk-rowling-interview-fantastic-beasts-crimes-grindelwald/

    My NOT so serious problem with this movie ;) is what the set designer put in the defense against the dark arts classroom. He described it as a brass "telescope" in one of the featurettes on the DVD, but in fact its a grotesquely enlarged brass microscope.

    http://www.antique-microscopes.com/mics/Schrauer_b.html

    You can see it in the background of this video at 2:50. I'd like to see Dumbledore climb to the top to look through the viewfinder.

     
  9. Hela

    Hela Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Queenie being redeemed the same way as the villains in OUAT, is exactly what I’m afraid of.

    Regina and Rumplestiltskin were the most entertaining characters in the show by a country mile...but the show had to paper over or retcon shit to make their ‘redemption’ even possible.

    Because confronting shit like Regina raping Graham (or what a horribly abusive husband Rumple was even as a sorta ‘good’ guy) required far more finesse than that ‘fun’ G-rated show about fairytale creatures was willing to handle.
     
  10. JanewayRulz!

    JanewayRulz! Vice Admiral Admiral

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    In order to be "redeemed" you need to be evil in the first place.

    I never said Queenie was evil and needed redeeming. In my last post I simply said that after 10 years I trust the author.

    In my initial post I also said that unlike Queenie's clumsy attempt to enchant Jacob at the start of the movie, she ultimately met someone who was a master at enchantment. I didn't just mean with a silver tongue a'la messianic dictators.

    Sorry you hate the movie so much.

    I'm looking forward to the next one.
     
  11. Hela

    Hela Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Evidence in the movie for Queenie being literally enchanted? At all?

    Because you can’t just go ‘well, she was around an enchanter.’ Everyone in Harry Potter is capable of the Imperious curse. If that’s our standard of evidence, I posit Harry’s not the hero of the series because Dumbledore was mind controlling him the entire time. Never mind there’s nothing in the text to support it, and that such a plot point would undermine...everything, I have a theory.

    As to the nature of evil, that’s defined by what we do. Willingly joining the Nazi’s because you fancy yourself a white wizard saviour, and completely ignoring the horrified protests of ‘oh god, you’re going to get us killed’ by the underclass you’ve elected yourself to speak for, is still evil. The road to hell - or in HP’s case, the floor of an otherworldly Kings Cross - is paved with good intentions.

    Which is funny, coz that’s another thing JK used to know. Dumbledore has a whole speech about how - however young, dumb, and well intentioned he may have been - he still may never have redeemed himself for associating with Grindelwald. The consequences for his well-intentioned and mistaken decisions were that bad.

    Note: I’ve read HP a dozen times over too. Shit like ‘the reveal at the end of DH means Snape was a good guy all along’ (as opposed to ‘it reveals Snape was one of the more complicated and interesting characters in the series, yet still very flawed’) is why my faith is...tenuous.

    That’s BookSnape. Movie Snape got up to far less shit.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2019
  12. JanewayRulz!

    JanewayRulz! Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I'm sorry, it seems no matter what I say, I am triggering you.

    I never said Queenie was put under the imperious curse.

    In fact, I don't think Jacob was ever put under the imperious curse.

    I think that big heart that appeared over his head when Newt released him means he was enchanted with a love potion, suggesting there are other ways to sway people.

    Jacob did exhort Queenie to "wake up" when they were in the Lestrange tomb, and she did seem (to me) that she was befuddled though nowhere near to the extent Jacob had been in his first scenes. Queenie was forever reading Newt and Jacob's minds, but not in that setting. She didn't light up to exclaim, "You found Tina! Where is she?" No, she seemed mesmerized.

    As you point out, just because someone has a theory doesn't mean its true.

    Kind of like the theory that Nagini was the boa Harry let loose from the zoo in the first movie. (Not)

    I guess I'll need to wait till 2020 to find out the truth about Queenie.
     
  13. stj

    stj Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Real life Nazis took inspiration from the real USA's Jim Crow laws. I dare say they noticed how the KKK' boom in the Twenties made use of pageantry too. Real life champions of freedom and democracy didn't want the federal government overstepping the Constitution with federal anti-lynching laws. As an auror for MACUSA, Tina and Theseus enforce bad laws, with few if any qualms. Not even Jacob has a principled problem, which is period appropriate, but kind of unpleasant. So, I can't see Queenie as someone turning against the angels just because she's a terrible person all of a sudden.

    Again, what Grindelwald did (send Queenie freely on her way) and what he says are not "Nazi" things.

    So, no, I for one can't agree that Queenie has done something unforgivable. I'm not even sure she's really done anything at all, yet. If we're going to be all judgmental, Jacob calling Queenie crazy, which he did although not literally, is equally unforgivable gaslighting.

    As for the notion of redemption, as I've grown older and I hope wiser, I tend to think redemption is a grace, not something to be earned. You accept redemption by turning away from the evil you've been doing, and try to do good. Redemption as something earned is awfully like retribution: It may seem a fair idea, but in practice, generally it's impossible to agree on what is sufficient.