Fans, what don't you like about DS9?

[Warped9]

Another companion thread. I'm compartmentalizing in an effort to avoid derailing the main subject matter of the threads.

Seriously, though, as much as we love our favourite shows there are always things we're not content with, wholly or in part. There are always things we feel could have been better.

So what didn't you like about DS9?

 

[startrekwatcher]

I would have lied to have seen the Dominion not be sidelined for season four and given more focus. I think it would have helped the show out because I really didn't think DS9 took off until the Dominion hostilities heated up

I was disappointed that after the excellent S6 Occupation the writers largely ignored the War and its players until the season 6 finale. We were largely treated to some of the series' weaker showings.

I was disappointed the writers didn't make the Final Chapter span the entirety of season seven as they had toyed with.

I didn't totally buy the idea the War ends because Odo links with the Founder and changes her mind. I also expected something more epic and surprising than the rather muted and quick climax we got with the Sisko/Dukat showdown in the series finale.

I thought there should have been a death or two more of a main castmember in the Occupation Arc. Ziyal's death didn't really satisfy.
I didn't like the way "Sacrifice of Angels" had the Prophets swoop in and make the Dominion fleet disappear in the wormhole.

With the exception of The Nagus and The Magnificent Ferengi I thought the Ferengi episdes weren't good.

Along those same lines I didn't care for the romance episodes like A Simple Investigation, Second Sight, Melora, Fascination, Meridian etc and I didn't care for most of the romances like Moogie/Nagus, Worf/Dax, Rom/Leeta, Shakaar/Kira etc. I did enjoy Sisko/Kasidy.

I don't mind meaningless non-heroic deaths but I thought how Jadzia bit it was rather flat.

I thought Terry Farrell was a weak actress and Jadzia's personality didn't do much for me.

I thought with the exception of Martok they ran the Klingon stories into the ground. And while I wasn't averse to the Klingon/Federation hostilities in season four I felt the writers didn't do anything interesting with it

As much as I liked TNG, I thought it hurt DS9 in season one being its own show with so many TNG crossovers.

 

[FPAlpha]

I thought Terry Farrell was a weak actress and Jadzia's personality didn't do much for me.

This and why did they have to bring in a new Dax for the final season and "waste" several episodes establishing her background when the entire season was storming to the finale?

DeBoer was ok i guess but i didn't see the need to introduce a totally new character just because..

 

[Navaros]

What I don't like about DS9:

- Bajorans: almost always inherently annoying and whiney. Always harping on ad nauesaum about "we were oppressed during the occupation!!!" --- we get it already, and did after the first 200x y'all whined about it too! And their noses are an eyesore. The only Bajorans I can stand are Shakaar, Kai Winn (loveee her) and Kira (not in the early seasons though, when she is every bit as annoying as any other Bajoran).

- Dax characters. Both completely useless and irrelevant to the plot of the show. Farrell's role was not well-acted and in fact her smug attitude made her inherently annoying. Additionally, she had generic dialogue that was always colossally uninteresting, and interchangeable (a telltale sign of bad writing) with O'Brien, Kira, Nog, or a plethora of other characters. She is pretty much the only character on the show who that can be said about. Clearly she was cast for eye candy (I don't even think she is pretty anyhow), not because she adds anything of value to the show. Ezri was likewise cast for affirmative-action reasons rather than because she adds anything to the show; therefore that is very evident and she ended up likewise detracting from the show; but no more than Jadzia did. Both are a huge waste of screen-time and salary. At least the Ezri actress was a good actress with acting range, though.

- Lwaxana Troi. Also inherently annoying, and always a waste of screen-time.

- Keiko O'Brien. Also inherently annoying, and always a waste of screen-time. I am shocked that she got 20+ episodes despite all of her scenes being completely unwatchable. To think that she had around the same amount of episodes as master actors who add tremedously to DS9 (Alaimo, Combs, Fletcher, Robinson etc. etc.) is appalling. What a waste of screen-time and salary that could have been much better spent paying for one of those other wonderful secondary character actors instead.

- Iska. Horrible character and inherently annoying. Using her to turn to ruin the Ferengi race by turning them into a carbon copy of humans was tragic.

- Not enough Garak, Weyoun, Winn, Dukat etc. These characters could have used 100+ episodes instead of the 20 - 40ish they got.

- ending of the Dominion War was rushed & hackneyed and made no sense.

- Federation approving of the genocide disease and agreeing to withhold the cure made no sense. This is a violation of everything that the Federation claims to stand for.

- Odo not delivering the cure right away despite his corrupt orders not to do so makes no sense, and is vastly out of character for Odo.

- there are 5 or 6 totally unwatchable dud episodes in every single Season of DS9 (with a higher number in Season 1 specifically). Would have been better if they simply didn't exist. However, all the other modern Trek shows have a much higher ratio of bad episodes, so DS9's ratio is still very good compared to them.

- fubaring of Dukat. Flushed 6 years of brilliant writing and and acting down the toilet for no good reason, in order to turn Dukat from one of the very best, most three-dimensional characters ever on TV, into a one-dimensional mustache-twirling caricature. There are no words to describe how immensely tragic this is.

- wormhole aliens. Never defined. Using existing actors to portray them is lazy and uninspiring. Them being Sisko's mom contradicts their appearance in Emissary.

- magical eraser for the Jem'Hadar ships in the wormhole. DS9 should be above this crap. Very insulting that they pulled this.

- Founders looking like Odo, even when he is nowhere near them, despite the fact that they hate humanoids vehemently. Extremely ludicrous. Done to 'not confuse the audience'; but that reason isn't good enough. The audience would be intelligent enough to tell who the Female Founder is even if she looked like something that made sense.

- Odo doesn't use his shapeshifting abilities anywhere near as much as he should in order to kick bad guy butt. Obviously they hardly used him due to not wanting to spend money; but it doesnt' really make sense how all he ever does is yell at people and grab their arm to arrest them.

- Got a new Defiant for free a couple of episodes after it was killed. What was the point of killing it then? That's just sloppy writing.

- The Jem'Hadar become mindless cattle/plot contrivances in some of the later episodes; whereas early on they were always highly intelligent, fearsome warrors to be terrified of on an individual basis.

- Season 6 opening arc should have lasted the whole entire Season...6 episodes was way too short and they could have done a ton more with the occupation.

 

[Bonzo the Fifth]

I feel like DS9 really should have waited until the end of TNG's run before getting started. For one, it meant DS9 couldn't do anything too controversial (like the Dominion War) without upsetting the applecart that was TNG. It also meant that many of the writers were pulling double duty writing for both shows, which I think is part (or perhaps the majority) of the reason for the sharp decline in quality in TNG in seasons 6 and 7 (Especially season 7), and the lack of truly standout episodes in the first couple of seasons of DS9 (I've since revised this opinion to just Season 1 after reading the Season 2 appreciation thread. Forgotten how many good episodes were in that season). It's somewhat symbolic that the introduction of the Jem'hadaar and the destruction of the Odyssey occured when they did (particularly since the Odyssey was a Galaxy-class), as it heralded a different storytelling style that began departing from and distinguishing itself significantly from the episodic, compartmentalized style of TNG. If the series could have done this from the get-go, and not waited until two seasons in to do this, I think the series would have gotten much better press, since I suspect that, by that point, they'd lost too many viewers via attrition who simply saw DS9 as an inferior, directionless version of TNG. (a bit harsh, I know, but that's how I saw it at the time, and I suspect I'm not the only one).

So yeah, I'd have to say Seasons 1 was what I don't like about the show. Thankfully it got better. Much better.

 

[TheGodBen]

Season 1 had no focus, it felt very much like TNG on a space station and it wasn't until the second season that the show managed to define itself.

Season 4 drifted off on a tangent with the Federation/Klingon conflict. It seemed cool at the time but looking at the show as a whole it is clear that they took the story on the wrong track and had to fix it in season 5.

They should have made Garak a part of the main cast in season 4 as the rumours say they were planning. More Garak is always a good thing.

The Ferengi were used too much as comic relief. Episodes like Body Parts and Business as Usual showed how to successfully use the Ferengi in a dramatic context but too often they were just used for "zany" comedy and episodes like Profit and Lace and Ferengi Love Songs can be painful to watch.

The mirror universe was overused and the last two MU episodes were awful.

Section 31 were introduced too late in the show and as such very little was done with them. I would have preferred it if they had showed up in season 4 and we had two or three more episodes about them.

Similar to section 31, Vic Fontane was introduced too late into the show and as such he was used too heavily in season 7.

I loved Ezri, but I hated how many episodes were used to define her in season 7 when the show should have been focusing more on the war.

Jake received less screen-time as the show went on and by season 7 he was almost a non-entity. It's a huge pity because he was a good character, the anti-Wesley, but they had trouble fitting him into the storylines.

While Waltz was a great episode, it put Dukat on the track of a one-dimensional villain which was completely the wrong way to utilise that fantastic character.

The war and the Sisko/Dukat conflict were wrapped up far too quickly in the finale. They needed an extra hour or two.

 

[Bonzo the Fifth]

I can forgive the Klingon business because that was the result of Executive Meddling wanting to go back to the TOS status quo. It's obvious the creators weren't enthused by it, but it did give them an excuse to incorporate Worf into the storyline, which, despite my misgivings at the time, actually worked out in the long run (though the Klingon soap operas did get a bit stale after a while).

Totally agree about Section 31, Vic Fontaine, et al. They were great ideas, but introduced too late in the series run to have much impact. Same with Ezri. If Jadzia had been offed in, say, season 3 or 4, we could have really grown to like Ezri, since I think most people's problem with her domination of early season 7 when we had better things to worry about. We could have also been spared the dreadful Worf/Jadzia romance that I think really derailed both characters.

For that matter, DS9 really didn't do romance well. Looking back, most of it was just painful to watch. Sisko and Kassidy was probably the most interesting, since they seemed to have a more natural flow to their relationship, and with her not being a main character, kept us from focusing too much on the relationship, which I think was a big problem with many of the others involving two main cast members (Worf/Jadzia, Odo/Kira being the main offenders here).

Character arcs were also something that was a problem, come to think of it. Jake Sisko was mentioned, and that was a very bad example, having him disappear almost entirely from the cast. Others suffered, as well. Jadzia as a character ran out of gas rather quickly, and so the writers paired her with Worf, which didn't do much for either character. Kira's angst about the Occupation wore thin after a while, whereupon it seemed the writers decided to just make her a butt monkey and rip open those wounds every... chance... they... got. Which is sad, because, excepting the Odo romance, I rather liked her character in Seasons 6 and 7, stepping up when Sisko wasn't around to take charge. Bashir never really found an arc, though the O'Brien bromance was actually fun to watch, and the character did manage to mature nonetheless over the years.

Despite this, secondary characters seemed to get off rather well, with people like Garak, Dukat (pre-'Walz') and even Rom and Nog getting substantial development that I think should have been used on the main characters as well...

This sounds harsh, but I really enjoy this series, for the record. Some of the comments in this thread, though, have jogged my brain with things that have always bugged me about the show.

 

[Photon]

Not alot:

1) Too much recycled footage of the station and battle footage
2) Too many Klingon episodes
3) Wanted more Romulans
4) WYLB ended really weak
5) Didn't like Sisko going to be a prophet
6) Didn't like Dukat becoming the boogie man
7) The Starship Enterprise should have been involved in the friggin war
8) Too many Chief O disaster episodes
9) Keiko was waaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyy too bitchy
10) TF was eye candy, but they could have found a better actress for Dax
11) The Duakat as Bajoran dirt farmer sucked
12) Didn't care for the creepy Odo/Kira luv nor the Angry Klingon/Hot Trill romances
13) Like to have seen Zial kept and pitted more against ol Dad
14) The throwaway episodes should have had more phaser fights and shootin' and killin'-if your script is gonna suck at least have some action
15) High def was in its infancy toward the end of DS9 but I wished S6/S7 could have been shot in HD
16) Like to have seen Eddington team up w/Dukat to take on Sisko

 

[Photon]

"wormhole aliens. Never defined. Using existing actors to portray them is lazy and uninspiring. Them being Sisko's mom contradicts their appearance in Emissary."

And all the ppl said,"amen"

I think Nav and I are the only ones who have this POV. It was lazy writing and confusing to viewers.

 

[Thestral]

"wormhole aliens. Never defined. Using existing actors to portray them is lazy and uninspiring. Them being Sisko's mom contradicts their appearance in Emissary."

And all the ppl said,"amen"

I think Nav and I are the only ones who have this POV. It was lazy writing and confusing to viewers.

Err... if you two are the only ones, then "all the ppl" don't say amen, do they?

For my complaints:

I love the Dominion War, and wouldn't want to take it away... but I missed the Bajoran stuff, and felt they misfired in how they tried to implement it later with the Pagh-wraith storyline (itself not a bad storyline, just not what the early season strength was).

Wish we'd gotten more about the Trill as a society, especially after the Joran coverup. This is somewhat a retroactive complaint since I think TrekLit has done a fantastic job of this.

I sometimes felt like the writers cared more about their secondary characters (Martok, Weyoun, Dukat, later Damar, Winn) than their primaries (especially Jake, HOLY COW Jake!).

Somewhat related to the above, but Jake the Amazing Dissapearing Sisko was quite annoying. Especially since I thought he and Ezri had great (brief) chemistry and would've thought that an interesting storyline to explore.

That's about it I think, yeah.

 

[Too Much Fun]

Wow, the Dax haters are out in full force in this thread. Just remember, some of us consider both Jadzia Dax and Ezri Dax a highlight of the series, rather than a detriment to it.

- Bajorans: almost always inherently annoying and whiney. Always harping on ad nauesaum about "we were oppressed during the occupation!!!" --- we get it already, and did after the first 200x y'all whined about it too! And their noses are an eyesore.

This is my biggest problem with it. There were way too many episodes, especially in the early seasons, about Bajoran politics and religion. I could care less about any of that. What is most important to me is characters. I savour dialogue between characters just interacting to show the uniqueness of their personalities and how it causes both conflicts and affection to occur between them.

I couldn't stand all episodes where people babble endlessly about Bajor's problems, the prophets, the Vedeks, the religious leaders, the refugees, etc. I don't watch Star Trek for that stuff. I'm much more interested in unique characters and adventures.

There were many episodes where I'd just look away and do something else (i.e. surf the Internet) while the boring conversations about Bajoran politics and religion went on until something more interesting happened or was discussed. I also agree that the Wormhole aliens were a cheap writer's crutch and they were irritating both in concept (how they were defined) and in how they behaved.

People complain that in TNG there weren't enough conflicts between characters, so they were boring, but I prefer that to tweaking characters too much, to the point where what was appealing about them in the first place is lost. I think Kira and Odo were vastly improved from the early seasons where they were just unbearably shrill blowhards, but Dukat was the opposite, changed from someone very multi-faceted to a one-dimensional villain.

 

[Xerxes1979]

Augmented super genius Bashir. Completely wrecked the character.

The best games of darts are between closely matched opponents. I wouldn't enjoy playing against a player who could close out a game of cricket in eight rounds even if i made him shoot from 20 feet. O'brien would be better off trying to bring Quark up to his level than handicap Kahn-Noonien-Bashir.

 

[Thestral]

Too Much Fun, it's funny because I completely agree with you re: the Daxes... and completely disagree with you re: the Bajorans...

 

[startrekwatcher]

I sometimes felt like the writers cared more about their secondary characters (Martok, Weyoun, Dukat, later Damar, Winn) than their primaries (especially Jake, HOLY COW Jake!).

Of course the writers did care more for the secondary characters for the same reason I did--they were always more interesting.

I am one of those fans that wasn't upset at all the way the regular cast--O'Brien, Bashir, Jadzia, Jake, Quark--were displaced by characters like Damar, Weyoun, Kai Winn, Dukat, the Founder, Martok in the last two seasons and especially in the Final Chapter.

 

[The Grim Ghost]

Wow, the Dax haters are out in full force in this thread. Just remember, some of us consider both Jadzia Dax and Ezri Dax a highlight of the series, rather than a detriment to it.

- Bajorans: almost always inherently annoying and whiney. Always harping on ad nauesaum about "we were oppressed during the occupation!!!" --- we get it already, and did after the first 200x y'all whined about it too! And their noses are an eyesore.

This is my biggest problem with it. There were way too many episodes, especially in the early seasons, about Bajoran politics and religion. I could care less about any of that. What is most important to me is characters. I savour dialogue between characters just interacting to show the uniqueness of their personalities and how it causes both conflicts and affection to occur between them.

I couldn't stand all episodes where people babble endlessly about Bajor's problems, the prophets, the Vedeks, the religious leaders, the refugees, etc. I don't watch Star Trek for that stuff. I'm much more interested in unique characters and adventures.

There were many episodes where I'd just look away and do something else (i.e. surf the Internet) while the boring conversations about Bajoran politics and religion went on until something more interesting happened or was discussed. I also agree that the Wormhole aliens were a cheap writer's crutch and they were irritating both in concept (how they were defined) and in how they behaved.

People complain that in TNG there weren't enough conflicts between characters, so they were boring, but I prefer that to tweaking characters too much, to the point where what was appealing about them in the first place is lost. I think Kira and Odo were vastly improved from the early seasons where they were just unbearably shrill blowhards, but Dukat was the opposite, changed from someone very multi-faceted to a one-dimensional villain.

You know I felt the same way about the Bajorans the 1st couple of times I watched DS9 through. Somehow I find them much more interesting now though and I really get into the way their society and culture were built on through the series..

 

[Thestral]

Of course the writers did care more for the secondary characters for the same reason I did--they were always more interesting.

I am one of those fans that wasn't upset at all the way the regular cast--O'Brien, Bashir, Jadzia, Jake, Quark--were displaced by characters like Damar, Weyoun, Kai Winn, Dukat, the Founder, Martok in the last two seasons and especially in the Final Chapter.

And I, obviously, disagree. But laying aside preferences, there's no reason why those characters should be perceived by the writers as more interesting... because it's their job to make them interesting!

 

[Praetor]

Two words: "Eeee-vil" Dukat.

Okay, we get it. You don't like that the fans like him, so you've made him completely nuts, and, oh, supernatural even. We're supposed to hate him, you say?

I was also annoyed with Ezri. It's not that I disliked her, but I feel the approach was in some ways off. I liked the notion of "here's this insecure girl that has to live up to her predecessor's shadow" as a wink to the fans who were annoyed that Jadzia was killed, but she quickly seemed to fall into the "replacement Dax" crevice.

Also, more Garak and more Romulans would have been nice. But then, I always want more Romulans.

It also would have been nice to see more parts of the Gamma Quadrant that weren't either boring or Dominion-occupied.

EDIT: I also found the Defiant's destruction ultimatley pointless, since it was replaced with an identical ship several episodes later. If it was just to be replaced, what's the point? At least give them a different ship, or a temporary ship, or just don't blow it up in the first place. I could have imagined a scenario in which Sisko and crew were on another ship in the episode in question that gets destroyed instead of the Defiant. Anyway, if it was supposed to deliver oomph, it really didn't because its replacement undercut its destruction.

 

[Nightdiamond]

The series finale had an almost comic book like ending to it, with Sisko and Dukat falling inside the fire caves. And with Kai Winn tossing the book to Sisko 'just in time'...

But I love all the characters..

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Vic Fontaine.

I like everything else more and more each time I watch DS9 and even Vic is less unwatchable than he used to be.

 

[Brutal Strudel]

I'm with Praetor: the show really fumbled Dukat in the last season (I thought it was great when he went over to the Dominion--everything after "Waltz" was kinda dopey, redeemed only by Marc Alaimo's skill).