Falling Skies - season 3

[Pavonis]

What he explained was his motive, not the Volm's motive. Besides, how high do we expect Cochise to rank in the Volm military? He has about 20 people under him. He's probably a scout leader, not a general or a president.

 

[Mister Fandango]

<smacks forehead>

Of all the problems this show has, this isn't one. You're just refusing to see it for what it is, instead insisting on coloring it with your interpretation of what he said. Which wasn't what he said, except on the surface.

 

[Pavonis]

Hey, we both agree there are ulterior motives, so where is our disagreement?

 

[sojourner]

instead insisting on coloring it with your interpretation of what he said.

pot. kettle. black.

 

[Mister Fandango]

You're right.

Cochise didn't say that his people were fighting to exact revenge on the Ashvendi, to help prevent other worlds and civilizations from suffering their same fate, and hope to one day return home (or create a new one; which might very well be the ulterior motive) after they have finally defeated them.

He didn't say that at all.

Nope, just fighting for a flower. Because, like, the flower makes him immortal or something. I dunno.

 

[Pavonis]

Look, I don't doubt that Cochise told the truth about his motivations for fighting. I just doubt that his motive is his people's motive. Cochise might be a good guy, but are all the Volm good guys? He sidestepped the President's question. Why did he do that, if not to hide what the Volm's motives really are?

 

[Sindatur]

Yea, I think Cochise basically told the truth, but, almost certainly there are other truths he hasn't told

 

[sojourner]

I dunno.

QFT.

 

[Guy Gardener]

You're aware that not all the Volm would have left Volmworld to chase the Asphenni.

A few thousand Volm left two hundred years ago, while a few billion stayed behind because they "got over it" and moved on with rebuilding their planet.

Or...

The entire population mobilized, and left Volmworld empty.

There might be a reason for that, if the ecological destruction of Volmworld was so excessive, that even if there can volmaform their planet back into a fit and liveable state, it still might take a few hundred years till it's in a fit and pristine condition.

(No I haven't seen Wall-E too many times.)

Ergo, the Volm are killing time till their world is ready.

This is all conditional to the scope of Cochise's truth.

Oh?

If Ben Hathaway surrendered, which would have been the responsible thing to do, to surrender as often as loudly as possibly so that terms for the continued survival of the human race could be argued for... Is he really the President any more?

 

[Guy Gardener]

In Real Life, Australia is a continent called "Australia." Has been for years.

Wikipedia wants to make you it's bitch.

Continental Australia.

 

[propita]

CC calls then "Espheni" or "Esphenni." Can't remember how many "n's."

 

[bigdaddy]

Never played Risk. I would have thought you'd have to take down a european country first.

Nah, you need South American because it connects with northern Africa which is your way to Europe. It also connects to North America to cause problems there, yet is small enough to secure somewhat easily unlike Europe.

 

[Mister Fandango]

Look, I don't doubt that Cochise told the truth about his motivations for fighting. I just doubt that his motive is his people's motive.

And that's what I take issue with. He was clearly explaining his people's motivation, as requested. Whether it's the whole truth, part true, or a complete fabrication is anyone's guess. But since he is the sole link between the Volm and the Humans, and he presented that motivation in the name of his people -- which he clearly had the authority to do, else he wouldn't be their ambassador -- then there's absolutely no evidence that it isn't the reason his people are doing what they're doing.

I don't know what's so hard to grasp about that. It also had jack-all to do with a flower; that was just an eloquent, poetic way of explaining the whole thing, despite your original claims otherwise. And that, in particular, is what I took issue with in your posts. All the flower represented was his personal hope; the rest of the speech was all about his people's reasoning for coming to Earth and fighting however-you-want-to-spell-them.

Cochise might be a good guy, but are all the Volm good guys?

I'm really not sure why you think of any of that really matters to this discussion. Cochise could have been lying through his teeth, though there's still no evidence whatsoever that he was other than a couple of characters assuming all aliens are evil (who, incidentally, also make that assumption without any evidence).

You and, apparently sojourner, just seem to have this misguided and erroneous belief that he was just talking about a damn flower and, somehow, sidestepped the question he was asked. Which is wrong. There's no debate there; it's flat-out wrong.

He sidestepped the President's question.

No. He. Did. Not.

In no way, shape, or form did he sidestep the President's question. He was asked why his people were fighting and helping Earth. He answered it in a manner that came across as completely sincere and believable. So much so that even the President, a man with little reason to believe an alien, was sold.

Go listen to it again. Ignore the flower. Listen to everything else he says.

The President didn't ask him what his people's plans for Earth was after they defeated them. He didn't even bother to ask if they would leave them in peace after doing so. He just asked why they helping them fight. And he got an answer, both for the Volm and Cochise himself. Is it the real answer? We won't know until it's revealed. But it was a god-damned answer.

 

[Pavonis]

Of course there is no evidence that Cochise isn't exactly what he says he is! This isn't a scientific investigation, it's a story. And I expect a fucking twist in it! I'd expect benevolent superpowerful aliens to save us from an evil alien occupation force in real life before I'd expect something like that to happen in fiction! It's too good to be true, dammit! Nothing in fiction is ever what it seems!

If I can catch a rerun of the episode, I will, but I distinctly remember Cochise saying "I'm fighting..." in his eloquent speech, not "we". If I'm wrong, fine. I don't commit episodes to memory on the first airing.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I ust rewatched the scene,

"That is what I am fighting for Mister president."

 

[Mister Fandango]

"I have, myself, full confidence that if all do their duty, if nothing is neglected, and if the best arrangements are made, as they are being made, we shall prove ourselves once again able to defend our Island home, to ride out the storm of war, and to outlive the menace of tyranny, if necessary for years, if necessary alone."

I guess Winston Churchill wasn't talking for his fellow countrymen. I mean, he starts off with "I have, myself..." thus, apparently, he couldn't have been, right? It doesn't matter if he referred to the rest of his people during parts of it, just as Cochise did during his. He said "I." It's all rendered moot. Apparently.

How about Chief Joseph when and his tribe (sorry, just he, apparently) surrendered?

"Tell General Howard I know his heart. What he told me before, I have it in my heart. I am tired of fighting. Our Chiefs are killed; Looking Glass is dead, Ta Hool Hool Shute is dead. The old men are all dead. It is the young men who say yes or no. He who led on the young men is dead. It is cold, and we have no blankets; the little children are freezing to death. My people, some of them, have run away to the hills, and have no blankets, no food. No one knows where they are – perhaps freezing to death. I want to have time to look for my children, and see how many of them I can find. Maybe I shall find them among the dead. Hear me, my Chiefs! I am tired; my heart is sick and sad. From where the sun now stands I will fight no more forever."

The trend continues throughout numerous other speeches. But it doesn't matter, I guess. If someone says "I" they can't possibly be speaking for their majority of their people. It just isn't possible. They said "I," dammit! Eloquence, symbolism, and poetry can go fuck themselves.

 

[Guy Gardener]

He slips back and forth between his individual motives and group motives.

They all don't want to see that flower, but they only want to kill the enemy slightly more than they want to go home.

 

[JD]

I enjoyed this episode. I thought we got some pretty good devleopments for all of the stories.
As for the debate about Cochise's speach, I thought it was pretty clear he was speaking metaphorically about his people as a whole, not just himself. And I do not doubt that the Volm are on Earth for exactly the reason Cochise says, they do want to help the humans fight the Espheni (that's the spelling on wikipedia) and want to do get them off of Earth. The question in my mind is what then? Will they just leave or do they have their own plans for Earth?

 

[EmoBorg]

If Espheni continue to rule the Volm's home planet, wouldn't that make the Volm the alien version of the WW2 free french forces. Liberating one occupied territory at a time, till they gather enough resources and manpower for a push towards their home planet unless of course, the Espheni had already destroyed the Volm's home planet and the Volm are out to get them out of vengeance.

 

[Guy Gardener]

No sir, Cochise said that the Aspheni were unprepared for their level of technology, therefore the Aspheni were repulsed from the Volm homeworld, but what he didn't extrapolate further was admitting that no one gets away with getting away from the Volm. No one. You fuck with the Volm and you die. Then your family dies, then your friends die, then your enemies, and then your entire species dies. If it takes a thousand years, every one dies. This is what happens when you fuck a stranger in the ass.

It's not uncommon in the real world, there are still manic assassins out there still tracking down Nazis for trial and execution 68 years after the fall of fortress Berlin.

I can see Tom not agreeing to this.

"They're running from you? Hundreds of years ago they gave you a bloody nose and you've spent every minute since then decimating their race into a dysfunctional sliver. There's what, a handful of them left and rather than let it go, you light such a fire under their asses that they feel compelled to enslave entire worlds to defend themselves from you? How many worlds have been crushed between your crusade to mop up the last half Dozen Aspheni who are no doubt the great, great, greatgrand children of the actual monsters who attacked your world? Maybe if you stop chasing them, the next world will be spared this happening to them, you are the only reason that this keeps happening because despite all your talk about superior weapons you don't have the drive or wit to force home a lock out and end this finally and forever."