Fade In: The Writing of Star Trek: Insurrection
- Thread starter DarkHorizon
- Start date
^ Perzactly!
No, you need to be a little more delicate about it than that. If you, as an IP holder, tell your audience that certain expressions of that IP don't count, like licensed novels, then you've just encouraged your audience to ignore those expressions of that IP. And if you're the licensee who spent money for the license and just spent more money in bringing a product to market, the last thing you want is the IP holder encouraging the audience not to spend money on your product.
I don't see any need to say anything. Tie-ins have always worked a certain way, except in rare cases, so anyone who reads tie-ins long enough should catch onto it. There's nothing to keep them from being contradicted by screen canon, and sometimes they're variant interpretations that don't quite mesh with canon to begin with, but as long as they are consistent, the individual reader is free to accept them as part of a personal continuity. I'll never understand this idea that fans need some authority telling them what to accept and what to reject. Whatever happened to thinking for yourself? It's more meaningful if you can personalize it, craft your own view of the continuity by making your own choices about what to accept or disregard.
Exactly. As far as I'm concerned, the first two DC Comics Annuals are how the 5YM began and ended, now matter what Paramount says. Federation and Strangers From the Sky are also part of my personal continuity, even though they were both contradicted by First Contact. I liked First Contact as a movie, but I liked the novels better. If somebody has a cool idea about Trek, I don't much care where it comes from. I just enjoy the cool idea for what it is.
While this thread has gotten WAY off topic, I would like to add my latinum to the canon debate. I have always gotten around the subject by deciding that anything which contradicts other ST media is simply set in one of the THOUSANDS of alternative ST universes. After all, it is well established in the films and TV series that other universes exist besides ours. (Which is an alternative universe in itself.) 
As always, IMHO.
As always, IMHO.
Now that I've read it... the first draft was the best one. Duffy, the politics, a great space battle in the opening, the Romulans, Worf fighting and killing the bad guy in an to-be-awesome Bat'leth fight in the climax (!), and the outlook of Ian McKellan playing the President of the Federation, plus greater looks inside the Federation Council in Paris and Starfleet Academy/Headquarters in San Francisco, fantastic stuff. But they didn't pitch it to Patrick Stewart because they thought he wouldn't like the Fountain of Youth story.
Stewarts criticisms about the second story were all perfectly legit and reasonable.
But when they went back to the Fountain of Youth, they didn't think about simply reusing their old draft. Too bad.
Stewarts criticisms about the second story were all perfectly legit and reasonable.
But when they went back to the Fountain of Youth, they didn't think about simply reusing their old draft. Too bad.
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I should think that's obvious.
It's about learning to over-come your differences, to see the strengths of how those you consider your rival can become your own strengths and how you can contribute to them.
That's the basic core of ST09 -- Kirk and Spock overcoming their differences and becoming friends. It's a Kirk/Spock buddy cop movie.
That's what the press release says it's about. That's not what comes across in the movie.
... ?
The movie starts by comparing and contrasting Kirk's and Spock's histories. We see how Kirk grew up in Iowa; we see how Spock grew up on Vulcan. This progresses into their young adulthoods; we see how Spock rejected the Vulcan Science Academy, and we see how Kirk came to Starfleet. (Heck, in a deleted scene, we even see how Spock was born -- a contrast to how Kirk was born!)
It progresses by contrasting their subsequent accomplishments and leadership styles, and features numerous conflicts with them until, as a result of each one showing the other something about themselves they did not know -- Old!Spock showing Kirk his potential future as captain of the Enterprise and man who appreciates the temperance of a cool mind on his own passions, Kirk forcing Spock to confront his feelings of grief and anger -- both are able to reconcile themselves to one-another. When that happens, both start to recognize what there is to like about the other, and learn to overcome their differences and become friends.
It's in the very heart and core of the film. It's what immediately struck me about ST09. The core of that film was a buddy cop movie in outer space. It's definitely what comes across in the film.
ETA:
I dunno, one look at Avery Brooks pretty well sold me on the thought that the lead actor was going to be black, making Sisko black. I don't recall having to point attention to him being black.
Well, granted Avery Brooks being 'black' (or 'brown' if you will) was an obvious clue DS9 was going to have a different commander from previous major ST leads; but I'm referring to episodes 'Far Beyond the Stars'...'Bada Boom Bada-Bing' (I'm probably getting the title wrong)...where we have a 23rd century black man referring to something that happened in the 20th century and even before that.
We didn't have Picard or Kirk constantly make it known (Ex: 'My white ancestors in the 1960s did so-and-so'...or 'A a white man, I feel'
1. "Far Beyond the Stars" was not about Sisko's experiences with racism, it was about Benny Russell's. Sure, Sisko experienced Benny's life, but that doesn't mean that Sisko was fixated on 20th Century racism. It means he encountered it in a vision from the Prophets, that's all.
2. One reference on Sisko's part to being concerned about holodeck programs that portray historical race relations as being more egalitarian than they actually were does not mean that Sisko was "constantly," in your words, bringing up his ancestors' race. Why would you equate a single such reference to him "constantly" bringing it up? Hell, why would you equate even two such references to it "constantly" being brought up?
The 24th Century, actually. And Sisko was written like someone from the 24th Century. Like any reasonable 24th person, he is fully committed to egalitarianism. And for him, that extends to believing that it is wrong to portray historical eras as having been egalitarian when they weren't. And Kassidy is portrayed as having a different interpretation of what being committed to egalitarianism actually means; she's willing to enjoy a work of historical fiction that whitewashes history because she interprets it as a depiction of how things ought to have been rather than how they actually were. Both are perfectly valid ways for an enlightened human being to view historical fiction.
And why is that? Sisko is committed to egalitarianism, but, just as Picard is proud of his French ancestry, Sisko is proud of his African-American ancestry. He would have immediately recognized a historical inaccuracy of the Vic Program's magnitude. And given Sisko's rather melancholy nature, I can easily see it being something that would disturb him rather than inspire him the way it did Kassidy.
Actually, I seem to recall that the DS9 Companion makes it pretty clear that that was Ira Steven Behr's (a white guy) decision, not Avery Brooks's. I'm not sure why you're assuming that Brooks must have been behind that decision.
True -- but bear in mind that "Far Beyond the Stars" was written and developed before the writers asked Brooks to direct it. It's their statement against racial oppression, too.
Very true, though I think people sometimes attribute creative decisions made on DS9 about racial issues to Brooks without evidence. The assumption some of them seem to have is that he's some sort of Angry Black Man who imposed a racial agenda on the show.
It did in the movie I saw.
kkozoriz1
Fleet Captain
I didn't see it either. For example in the final scene Spock isn't assigned to the Enterprise and has to ask Kirk to be his first officer. Kirk didn't even try to get him on the crew let alone as his exec. It was all about putting Kirk up on a pedestal so everyone could gaze upon his greatness.
Yeah. Leaving spacedock with a big hole at the top of your org chart isn't exactly something that happens by accident. It's more than a little bit of a cheat that they're handling it as they're casting off (it reminds me of how I describe the premise of Castle as "A mystery writer solves murders with the police because of implausible televisions reasons"), but if Kirk didn't want Spock on his crew, he wouldn't have been there at all.
kkozoriz1
Fleet Captain
Spock wasn't even assigned to the ship when Kirk was "this" close to leaving. Spock shows up, does a little ass kissing and BAM he's second in command.
Kirk - Mr. Sulu, prepare to engage thrusters.
Spock - Permission to come aboard, Captain.
Kirk - Permission granted.
Spock - As you have yet to select a first officer, respectfully I would like to submit my candidacy. Should you desire I can provide character references.
Kirk - It would be my honor commander.
Maneuvering thrusters Mr. Sulu.
Sulu - Thrusters on standby.
Kirk - Take us out.
Kirk - Mr. Sulu, prepare to engage thrusters.
Spock - Permission to come aboard, Captain.
Kirk - Permission granted.
Spock - As you have yet to select a first officer, respectfully I would like to submit my candidacy. Should you desire I can provide character references.
Kirk - It would be my honor commander.
Maneuvering thrusters Mr. Sulu.
Sulu - Thrusters on standby.
Kirk - Take us out.
He was always written like someone from the 24th Century.
Irrelevant. The issue is not the particularities of what defines a Frenchman or an African-American; the issue is that both are proud of their heritages without thinking that their heritages are superior to others, and that both would immediately recognize historical inaccuracies because of their heritage.
Spock does pull double duty. Well, at that exact moment, he'd been pulling single duty... the point is, he was the science officer of the Enterprise even if he wasn't officially the XO, so it's not like he wasn't supposed to be on the bridge at all.
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