FACT TREK—The Death Slot (or: The Flying Fickle Finger of Fate)

[Christopher]

My biggest problem with "This Side of Paradise" is the issue of consent (something that's actual rampant in all Trek, TBH). Spock doesn't consent to being drugged. Leila being "high" doesn't excuse what she did to Spock.

If only that were discussed it the episode...

Does it need to be? The whole point is that what happened to the colonists was wrong, and that forcing the crew to submit to the same infection was just as wrong. See any other story where people are taken over by a mind-controlling force that compels them to infect others, like a zombie movie or, heck, a Borg episode. The fact that it's morally wrong is implicit.

A deleted scene from the script, which is in the James Blish adaptation, revealed that the spores were a kind of semi-sentient parasite mind-controlling their hosts, rather than just a "drug" or infection. So it definitely did address the issue of consent, in that the spores took people over without their consent and basically enslaved them with happiness. That's what Kirk was rebelling against. But since that dialogue was cut, people often perceive the episode as being just about some morally neutral psychoactive effect, or "drug" as proposed here. (I was familiar with the Blish version from childhood, so I never even registered that the key dialogue wasn't in the final episode. I was surprised to learn just a few years ago that many people perceive the spores as benign or morally neutral because they don't know they were meant to be sentient.)

 

[suarezguy]

Kirk, though, would have disdained the impact/effect and tried to stop it even if the affected had consented.

 

[Christopher]

Kirk, though, would have disdained the impact/effect and tried to stop it even if the affected had consented.

First, I question whether there's such a thing as consent to being mind-controlled. The very fact of being mind-controlled makes any appearance of consent invalid.

Second, it's a myth that Kirk went around forcing his views on other cultures. When circumstances permitted, he left them to their ways even when he didn't care for them. He helped the Iotians bring about the reform they already wanted within their existing gangster system, rather than trying to get rid of it. He stopped Merik from meddling with Space Rome but otherwise left Space Rome as it was, just as oppressive and murderous as when he found it. He argued with Councilor Hedin about the Gideonites' "fight overpopulation with mass murder" plan, but ultimately did nothing to prevent them from going through with it.

The episodes that involve Kirk fundamentally changing the social order (without the catalyst of removing other interference like John Gill or Ron Tracey) usually force him to do it by having the resident authorities, computer gods, or whatever attack the Enterprise so that he has to tear down the system to save the ship (which the first-draft TNG writers' bible actually codified as a recognized exception to the Prime Directive). Or, in the case of "The Cloud Minders," it was a whole planet in danger that compelled him to intervene in the political conflict to get the medicine. The fact that they had to go to that well so often shows that Kirk wouldn't have intervened just because he felt like it. The writers had to contrive the situation to leave him no choice.

 

[Maurice]

Must we wander off into well-trodden, nay, trampled, in-universe discussion...again?

 

[Hofner]

I've always thought The Monkees was a ripoff of the Beatles' and their two movies, A Hard Day's Night and Help!, right down to both of the band names being a misspelling of a critter's name.

Well, maybe 'ripoff' is too strong a term, I'll put it this way; the Monkees was like a weekly tv show version of the two Beatles movies.

Back when the monkees was on the air when I was about 7, I remember arguing with a friend about who was funnier, the Beatles or the Monkees, as if they were supposed to be comedy acts and not rock bands. I was the Beatles fan.

Interesting about the Marx Brothers reference, when A Hard Day's Night came out, people compared the Beatles to the Marx Brothers and typically, John Lennon retorted that the only reason for the comparison was that there were four of them like the Marx Brothers.


About the fantasy sitcons, don't forget "Mr. Ed", what an off the wall show.

"A horse's ass is a horse's ass of course of course"


Robert

 

[Christopher]

I've always thought The Monkees was a ripoff of the Beatles' and their two movies, A Hard Day's Night and Help!, right down to both of the band names being a misspelling of a critter's name

Well, maybe 'ripoff' is too strong a term, I'll put it this way; the Monkees was like a weekly tv show version of the two Beatles movies.

It definitely started as, shall we say, an emulation of A Hard Day's Night, but it also threw in the Marx Brothers and Ernie Kovacs and the wild experimentalism of the era and the talents of the Monkees themselves, and it became more of its own thing.

 

[Maurice]

I always saw The Monkees as a TV takeoff of the Beatles' Help! The Monkees single film, Head, is pretty wack with moments of brilliance.

The history of TV is a lot more complicated than almost any so-called history TV programs ever begin to suggest. So much of what are routinely cited as breakthroughs are incorrectly credited to programs which somehow managed to remain in the public consciousness even as the reality was other shows actually broke that new ground. A prime example being it's gospel to many that Desi Arnaz invented the 3-camera sitcom or the rerun market when neither is the case (35mm multicam was developed well before I Love Lucy filmed its pilot...the innovation there was the lighting scheme and the camera choreography, and that they did multicam with a live audience, whereas Amos -n- Andy, which filmed with multicam and premiered some months earlier, did not film in front of an audience; and reruns were a thing already even in radio).

As we like to say, you can't properly credit Star Trek with its actual innovations if you don't look outside Star Trek and other shows which stayed in public consciousness because of successful syndication.

 

[FormerLurker]

Wait, wait, wait. There were five Marx brothers. You're forgetting Gummo.

 

[publiusr]

No Boffo?

 

[M'Sharak]

Wait, wait, wait. There were five Marx brothers. You're forgetting Gummo.

Gummo only performed with them in their earliest days on stage, though. He was drafted in 1918 for WWI service, replaced in the act by youngest brother Zeppo, and did not appear in any of the movies. For the first five (and most highly-regarded) feature films, they were billed as "The Four Marx Brothers," after which Zeppo dropped out.

 

[Christopher]

For the first five (and most highly-regarded) feature films, they were billed as "The Four Marx Brothers," after which Zeppo dropped out.

Well, I'd say their first post-Zeppo film, A Night at the Opera, is one of their most highly regarded feature films. But that's a discussion for another thread.

Anyway, Zeppo stopped performing with them, but he became their agent, so he was still involved.

 

[Hofner]

I would not be surprised if Lennon didn't even know about Gummo, no internet or wikipedia back then.

Speaking of wikipedia, I read the article on the Monkees and apparently, Davy Jones knew how to play the drums. But being short, it was felt that he would disappear back there behind the drums so they stuck Mickey Dolenz with the job. I find this ironic considering Ringo was the shortest Beatle.

Now my twisted mind can't help but think; when casting the role of Chekov, what if instead of a Davy Jones lookalike, they had chosen a Ringo lookalike?

Wow.


Robert

 

[Christopher]

I would not be surprised if Lennon didn't even know about Gummo, no internet or wikipedia back then.

There were plenty of ways to learn things before the internet and Wikipedia, like actual books. How do you think the Wikipedia authors found out about them? If anything, I find that people today are far more culturally illiterate, because they tend only to watch recent movies and shows or things that already interest them, rather than getting the eclectic mix of older stuff that was constantly rerun on TV in my day, or regular news and documentary shows that filled us in on the past and present. The internet may be broader in theory, but people tend to limit themselves to narrow channels of input within it and thus learn much less about the world.

I learned about Gummo Marx from my father, and he was explaining a joke from a 1981 special, The Muppets Go to the Movies. The joke was that a "Bergman film" they showcased turned out not to be from Ingmar Bergman, but his cousin Gummo Bergman. The joke presupposed that the audience would get the Gummo reference; I only needed it explained to me because I was barely 13 at the time.

The Marx Brothers were major celebrities for decades, not only appearing in their films but making many television appearances, giving hundreds of interviews, having books written and retrospectives and documentaries made about their careers, etc. They were a pervasive part of popular culture, much more so than today. So of course people knew about Gummo Marx.

But Lennon was correct in that there were never more than four Marx Brothers at a time; Gummo was the fourth in their early stage work, and Zeppo replaced him once their film career began. In Beatles terms, Gummo was Pete Best.

 

[Ssosmcin]

The Marx Brothers were major celebrities for decades, not only appearing in their films but making many television appearances, giving hundreds of interviews, having books written and retrospectives and documentaries made about their careers, etc. They were a pervasive part of popular culture, much more so than today. So of course people knew about Gummo Marx.

But Lennon was correct in that there were never more than four Marx Brothers at a time; Gummo was the fourth in their early stage work, and Zeppo replaced him once their film career began. In Beatles terms, Gummo was Pete Best.

Also, we also had fewer viewing options and didn't have to actively seek out older films when we were youngsters (I think you and I are very close in age judging by the shared TV and movies). We had primarily the networks and local stations and Marx Brothers movies were run pretty often, at least in my market. Along with Abbott & Costello films, Tarzan flicks and other films/characters from generations prior. And local indie stations filled their airtime with old movies and TV shows instead of being syndicated networks running the same stuff. My dad was a huge fan of the Marx Brothers and, since I idolized by father, I watched what he watched. I learned about Gummo through him.

Now, you have to want to seek them out and I don't know how much interest there is outside of buffs.

 

[Christopher]

We had primarily the networks and local stations and Marx Brothers movies were run pretty often, at least in my market. Along with Abbott & Costello films, Tarzan flicks and other films/characters from generations prior. And local indie stations filled their airtime with old movies and TV shows instead of being syndicated networks running the same stuff. My dad was a huge fan of the Marx Brothers and, since I idolized by father, I watched what he watched. I learned about Gummo through him.

That's pretty close to my experience. I'm happy to still own the complete Marx Bros. filmography on two DVD sets I inherited from my father (one for Paramount, one for MGM etc.), but I certainly saw the movies run on TV plenty of times, along with the stuff you mention and plenty else (such as Warner Bros., MGM, and other theatrical cartoon shorts that made frequent references to the Marx Brothers).

 

[plynch]

Davy could play the drums and there are quotes of the boys saying he had the best sense of time of all of them. He would hop on in concert when Micky would come out for his solo turn. He could also play keyboards a bit and plays organ (basically one chord) on Circle Sky in the live version in Head.

I am a huge Monkees fan and participate in discussion/groups, even made the case on my radio show that album 4 holds its own musically (not culturally, I know) with Sgt Pepper. Honestly though, they were more an “act” than a band as we commonly use the word. It is no insult to be an act. Many or most Motown groups were acts who sang.

And Micky has a quote he trots out a lot about the Monkees becoming a real band (they did record as a unit and play their “assigned” instruments on album 3) was like Nimoy becoming a real Vulcan. He and Jones came from the “entertainment” side, where Nesmith and Tork were more “musicians” (both folkies at the time) who wanted to play on the records. Peter even showed up at his first session with his guitar and was surprised at not being able to play. Naivete. Basically nobody played their own instruments on records in that day because of studio time being expensive and having pros like the Wrecking Crew who could run a tune down and then be money on multiple takes. The Beatles did, of course, in the UK, but even Ringo got subbed for early on b/c Geo Martin didn’t think he had a steady enough beat.

 

[Maurice]

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

 

[plynch]

Wow. Wow. Wow. The Laugh In. Such a thing of its time. Wow.

Yeah, there’s the Monkees as a trio hanging on. They toured with an r&b band during 1969 and appeared on Johnny Cash and Glen Campbell.

They didn’t write together nor really play as a band. No Brian Epstein figure to shepherd/lead. The creators of the show went their own way after the show and movie were done to produce/write Easy Rider and Five Easy Pieces.

Everything runs its course. Four #1 albums in one year, no one has done that before or since.

Fortunately I got to shower love at Mike along with a couple thousand other fans in Milwaukee at the Riverside Theater shortly before his passing

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I always saw The Monkees as a TV takeoff of the Beatles' Help! The Monkees single film, Head, is pretty wack with moments of brilliance.

Cowritten by Jack Nicholson!

Fortunately I got to shower love at Mike along with a couple thousand other fans in Milwaukee at the Riverside Theater shortly before his passing.

Yeah, I got to see Mike and Micky in New York on their final tour last year. It was sadly obvious that Mike was in pretty bad shape. He stayed seated on a stool for most of the show and forgot lyrics to his songs a few times. Quite a difference from the sharp guy I saw just a couple years before. It was very touching to see how Micky was taking care of him and backing him up, though. They were obviously pretty close. But Nesmith's passing a few months back wasn't much of a surprise because of that.

 

[plynch]

He got better as the tour went on. Was fine by Milwaukee, walking around, singing well. Very lucid.

Early on I was questioning in discussions the ethics of bringing him out on tour in not good shape and was told he’s an adult and wanted to. Thing is people that old can be manipulated. But as I said he improved and Micky said he was in good health at the end and he Micky didn’t think death was imminent or anything. Then he deteriorated quickly.