Examples of Characters Doing Stupid Things

[BillJ]

I could just imagine Riker going to his quarters after being relieved and turning on his screen and there's a message saying

"Hello, buddy boy...
"Captain Jellico here. Sorry I had to relieve you of your duties. You don't feel so cocky now, do you Will? You know what the tragedy is here, Will? We could've been friends. You wouldn't go through the proper channels. You went over my head. That hurt. But life goes on, it's an old story, the fight for love and glory, huh Will? It helps if you think of it as a game. Every game has a winner... and a loser. I'm....cashing....you....out, Will."

Then Riker's quarters explode in a giant fireball. That might have made me think..."Hmmmmm Jellico may have gone too far this time, I guess he kind of a dick after all."

 

[Nightdiamond]

It seems that plenty of the crew's objections could have been addressed preemptively by a simple meeting called by Jellico. he'd just have to say, "These are the changes I need," followed by, "And this is why I need them." Providing context before hand creates personal buy in, and unites people on the grander vision and shared goals. Giving orders right then and there without expecting to explain yourself, or explaining only after being prompted, creates confusion.

True, it makes sense. But Jericho does have a meeting where he discusses the situation with the senior crew and they seem argumentative and unmotivated.

Jericho reveals the Cardassians have a fleet in a nebulae, next to a disputed Federation system.

Geordi and Crusher suggests they could be there for scientific research.T he crew should be able to offer alternatives and questions, but that suggestion came off as really naive.

After Jericho wants to go ahead he tells Crusher to have Sickbay in ready condition. Crusher acknowledges it, but seems really reluctant, and argumentative about it though.

I don't know, their attitudes suggests were it up to them, they would not have took any action--they would have tried to negotiate.

I think the point of the "no he's not" line is to just show that behind Jellico's confident demeanor he's actually unsure and nervous about the whole situation, nothing more. It humanizes him a little more. But at least for once Troi is revealing something that isn't too obvious to the audience.

True, but the way Troi did it, was without any sense of support. It hinted there had to be something wrong with Jericho's psyche.

Thank you for bringing up that point. It's a great episode but that particular thread was done in a piss poor way.

So Jellico comes aboard and takes charge in a no nonsense manner and knows what he wants done.

Then he plans a good cop/bad cop strategy for dealing with the Cardassians with him as the bad cop. Seems like a good idea to have a plan ahead of time, especially since the Cardassians are bound to be confrontational.

So like you said Riker comments on how confident and Troi says in a worried and ominous tone "No, he's not."

So the audience is like "Wow. Since Troi is an empath she knows something about him that is not good.....I wonder what it is and when it will rear its ugly head and put the Enterprise in jeopardy.....well let's see."

Then it never comes up again!!!!! He doesn't do anything crazy, he doesn't have a mental breakdown, it's not mentioned again even in passing. All he does is hold his own in discussions, send the Cardassians home in humiliation and saved Picard. What was this terrible thing about him Troi sensed and seemed to think could lead to disaster? Talk about a tease.

When I first saw the episode, I went along with it. I thought Jericho was a jerk and something was wrong with him and it would eventually end with him being relieved of duty or something.

We've seen that type of scene too many times before--and it usually ends the same way.

The ironic thing is, Jericho saved the day using his method. The other ironic thing is, if they followed Riker's suggestion, it might have meant war.

If they followed Geordi's or Beverly's assumption, they would not have done anything.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

I think the point of the "no he's not" line is to just show that behind Jellico's confident demeanor he's actually unsure and nervous about the whole situation, nothing more. It humanizes him a little more. But at least for once Troi is revealing something that isn't too obvious to the audience.

That's plausible to doubt.

But look it through the eyes of someone watching it for the first time. This guy comes aboard, starts giving commands, makes the crew scurry and is obviously more abrasive and less about understanding than Picard. He's being clearly set up to be a stark contrast to Picard and sort of an antagonist to the crew. Yet he hasn't done anything wrong or really acted in a suspicious way, so it's kind of hard to really think he's bad.
Then for some strange reason Troi says that "No he's not" line. And IMHO the scene is set up in such a way that is seems to want the audience to go "Uh oh. So there's something REALLY not right about him I wonder when the other shoe will drop and who'll fix his big mistake". Maybe even going so far as to assume Riket will step in, save the day and be vindicated. It was like the writers were telling the audience "Just wait, you'll see why this is really a bad leader and unlikable person."
I have a pretty clear memory of thinking that was foreshadowing something to come when I first saw it.....yet nothing does. In fact he actually performs brilliantly the rest of the way.
I think the part where he talks about his kid's artwork or his chat with Geordi about Titans turn do far more to humanize him than some comment from Troi that seems to smack of hinting at something big to come later.
Just my take.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

The no he's not scene and the way it's shot and her tone don't seem like a casual observation and really smacks of being significant later. If the writer's intent was to just show he had some inner worries I think it would have made more sense to shoot it say with Troi and Riker having drinks and Troi says something like "You know Will he has some strong feelings of nerverousness too. He's not some guy who is already sure he's right.

Doing it right before a big meeting with her worried tone and ominous music really seems to say it's not just some little thing she's noticed and just wait to see how it's revealed at a key moment.

 

[USS Triumphant]

Unfortunately, all the novels and comics I've seen interpret him as being a dick.

I know of *one* novel that treats him as a somewhat sympathetic character, but that novel also seemed like the author was heavily trolling Janeway fans, so....

As for Jellico being new to the crew, Data was assigned to a different ship when he dealt with his insubordinate crewmember. He also disobeyed a direct order as well in the same episode. The entire plan would not have been successful if he stuck to his military rank role and didn't think outside the box.

The difference is rather obviously that Data felt like he had information the fleet commander did not, whereas Riker was being a whiny insubordinate crybaby.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

It seems that plenty of the crew's objections could have been addressed preemptively by a simple meeting called by Jellico. he'd just have to say, "These are the changes I need," followed by, "And this is why I need them." Providing context before hand creates personal buy in, and unites people on the grander vision and shared goals. Giving orders right then and there without expecting to explain yourself, or explaining only after being prompted, creates confusion.

True, it makes sense. But Jericho does have a meeting where he discusses the situation with the senior crew and they seem argumentative and unmotivated.

Jericho reveals the Cardassians have a fleet in a nebulae, next to a disputed Federation system.

Geordi and Crusher suggests they could be there for scientific research.T he crew should be able to offer alternatives and questions, but that suggestion came off as really naive.

After Jericho wants to go ahead he tells Crusher to have Sickbay in ready condition. Crusher acknowledges it, but seems really reluctant, and argumentative about it though.

I don't know, their attitudes suggests were it up to them, they would not have took any action--they would have tried to negotiate.

I think the point of the "no he's not" line is to just show that behind Jellico's confident demeanor he's actually unsure and nervous about the whole situation, nothing more. It humanizes him a little more. But at least for once Troi is revealing something that isn't too obvious to the audience.

True, but the way Troi did it, was without any sense of support. It hinted there had to be something wrong with Jericho's psyche.

Thank you for bringing up that point. It's a great episode but that particular thread was done in a piss poor way.

So Jellico comes aboard and takes charge in a no nonsense manner and knows what he wants done.

Then he plans a good cop/bad cop strategy for dealing with the Cardassians with him as the bad cop. Seems like a good idea to have a plan ahead of time, especially since the Cardassians are bound to be confrontational.

So like you said Riker comments on how confident and Troi says in a worried and ominous tone "No, he's not."

So the audience is like "Wow. Since Troi is an empath she knows something about him that is not good.....I wonder what it is and when it will rear its ugly head and put the Enterprise in jeopardy.....well let's see."

Then it never comes up again!!!!! He doesn't do anything crazy, he doesn't have a mental breakdown, it's not mentioned again even in passing. All he does is hold his own in discussions, send the Cardassians home in humiliation and saved Picard. What was this terrible thing about him Troi sensed and seemed to think could lead to disaster? Talk about a tease.

When I first saw the episode, I went along with it. I thought Jericho was a jerk and something was wrong with him and it would eventually end with him being relieved of duty or something.

We've seen that type of scene too many times before--and it usually ends the same way.

The ironic thing is, Jericho saved the day using his method. The other ironic thing is, if they followed Riker's suggestion, it might have meant war.

If they followed Geordi's or Beverly's assumption, they would not have done anything.

I don't know about Geordi but Crusher certainly would have done nothing. In fact she seemed totally disgusted at his order to prepare sick bay for possible casualties and shock at the prospect that a ship designed for combat, which had had fights with several aggressive enemies before, might actually have to go to combat against an aggressive enemy.....WTF? So it's ok if Picard tells you to prep sick bay for a fight with the Borg but it's horrible if Jellico does it to prep for a possible battle with the Cardassians?

I think it was another weak stab at making Jellico look uncaring. When all it did was make Crusher look dumb and act like a B over an extremely reasonable and smart order of preparation.

 

[Makarov]

I kind of wonder if the opinion of Riker being whiney would change if he just said screw it, threw his badge on the table and took a shuttle to go rescue Picard. It was sacrificing his friend that pushed him over the edge to start yelling at Jellico. Lets face it trek characters often risk wars to save friends.

 

[fireproof78]

I kind of wonder if the opinion of Riker being whiney would change if he just said screw it, threw his badge on the table and took a shuttle to go rescue Picard. It was sacrificing his friend that pushed him over the edge to start yelling at Jellico. Lets face it trek characters often risk wars to save friends.

I'd watch that.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

I kind of wonder if the opinion of Riker being whiney would change if he just said screw it, threw his badge on the table and took a shuttle to go rescue Picard. It was sacrificing his friend that pushed him over the edge to start yelling at Jellico. Lets face it trek characters often risk wars to save friends.

That might have been a cool way to go. Personal loyalty vs duty and he picks loyalty. It would have been a neat contrast to the episode where he was keeping his old CO's illegal cloaking device a secret out of loyalty until he decides it's duty to spill the beans. Also I think it would have been mor in character with Riker instead of him trying to have it both ways when his duty and loyalty to Picard were in conflict.

The only issue is I don't think you could have done the taking off the badge and tossing it down thing because Worf did that when he decided to kill Duras after Duras killed Kaylar. I think that was a very powerful Worf action and having Riker might have been seen as a cheap copy.

Still I think the idea is a good one.

 

[fireproof78]

I kind of wonder if the opinion of Riker being whiney would change if he just said screw it, threw his badge on the table and took a shuttle to go rescue Picard. It was sacrificing his friend that pushed him over the edge to start yelling at Jellico. Lets face it trek characters often risk wars to save friends.

That might have been a cool way to go. Personal loyalty vs duty and he picks loyalty. It would have been a neat contrast to the episode where he was keeping his old CO's illegal cloaking device a secret out of loyalty until he decides it's duty to spill the beans. Also I think it would have been mor in character with Riker instead of him trying to have it both ways when his duty and loyalty to Picard were in conflict.

The only issue is I don't think you could have done the taking off the badge and tossing it down thing because Worf did that when he decided to kill Duras after Duras killed Kaylar. I think that was a very powerful Worf action and having Riker might have been seen as a cheap copy.

Still I think the idea is a good one.

I'm sure its been used in episodes before, but you could have Riker unpin his pips, and have them in hand before talking with Jellico. If they still disagreed, Riker would lay them down on the desk and walk out, with no more said.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

It seems that plenty of the crew's objections could have been addressed preemptively by a simple meeting called by Jellico. he'd just have to say, "These are the changes I need," followed by, "And this is why I need them." Providing context before hand creates personal buy in, and unites people on the grander vision and shared goals. Giving orders right then and there without expecting to explain yourself, or explaining only after being prompted, creates confusion.

But I say that bit of Monday-morning quarterbacking as someone who's firmly in the camp that the crew was inappropriate for much of that mission anyway. To me they get the bulk of the blame here, but there are leadership techniques designed to cut that out before it becomes an issue.

Yeah that would have been the optimal solution and probably would have avoided many problems , but Jellico was up to his ass in alligators so I can understand it not getting done.

I just think I'm light of him not doing something like that the crew was in a better position to help the situation with their actions and attitudes than Jellico was to try and figure out everyone's feelings in such a tense situation.

Like I said I'm sure the intent of the writers was to make Jellico look like some unreasonable, unsympathetic tyrant that the audience would hate, feel bad for the crew, especially Riker and be so glad when good old Picard returned.

IMHO it failed miserably though...In part because the crew got upset over pretty reasonable things he was doing because they had to work harder. Also in part because, whether it was intended or not, Ronnie Cox did play the role with some depth and sympathy and he wasn't just some overbearing asshole who screamed all the time while demanding the impossible.

They should have just brought back James Sikking, complete with his swagger stick, as another captain and told him to play it in the smug jerk way he played Styles, only yell a little more. That's a character that would have been really unlikable.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

Taking this thread in a different direction, how about Bob Briggs releasing the whales before Gillian could say goodbye to them?

--Sran

 

[FormerLurker]

She was right to slap him for it. He was a jerk.

 

[Timo]

...But one hell of a logistics guru! In one bloody night, he managed to get two whales out of a downtownish aquarium, to an airport, loaded into a cargo plane, flown to Alaska or thereabouts, and released. That calls for very special trucks at both ends, a midnight convoy around San Francisco, the special 747 tanked up (with water, not just fuel) and ready to go... Chances are exactly zero that he somehow changed the schedule at the last moment.

If Gillian doesn't read her memos, what she deserves is a sore palm.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[FormerLurker]

That depends on whether he sent her any memos. Based on his attitude, he probably made sure she didn't get any. He said "We thought it would be better for you." How the hell did he know? And she demonstrated that he was dead wrong about that, didn't she?

 

[Timo]

What, you think the interactive facepalm was the worst case scenario? Had she known in advance, she would have chained herself to Gracie's flipper, promptly drowned, and given the aquarium a bad rep when her body suffered a wardrobe malfunction in front of all those transport workers.

I think it's entirely possible her boss got her measure down pat, and did the best thing possible. He just didn't properly factor in her desire to please a smooth-talking bum from outer space / Iowa.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[FormerLurker]

Where are you getting "worst case scenario" from? She did know in advance that they were being shipped out, she even complained to Kirk about it while they were eating pizza. What Bob did was arrange for it to happen so she couldn't stand there and cry in public about it, while she was distracted by promises that she would get her goodbyes when the time came. What he did was best for him, and possibly for the aquarium. Not for any other consideration. And she had a right to kick him in the nads for it, but decided to be a lady.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

That depends on whether he sent her any memos. Based on his attitude, he probably made sure she didn't get any. He said "We thought it would be better for you." How the hell did he know? And she demonstrated that he was dead wrong about that, didn't she?

I agree. What Bob failed to realize is that the whales leaving would have been hard for Gillian either way; better to allow her the opportunity to say goodbye to them on her terms rather than his--which didn't give her the opportunity at all.

Where are you getting "worst case scenario" from? She did know in advance that they were being shipped out, she even complained to Kirk about it while they were eating pizza. What Bob did was arrange for it to happen so she couldn't stand there and cry in public about it, while she was distracted by promises that she would get her goodbyes when the time came. What he did was best for him, and possibly for the aquarium. Not for any other consideration. And she had a right to kick him in the nads for it, but decided to be a lady.

Agree again. I can understand Bob not wanting his top whale biologist crying her eyes out in front of the TV cameras. But what's the harm in allowing Gillian a few minutes of privacy to bid the whales farewell and then--when she's collected herself--have her stand side-by-side with him at a press conference announcing George and Gracie's departure? As both a colleague and an adult, Gillian deserved that much consideration from her boss--something he was apparently too juvenile and self-absorbed to realize.

--Sran

 

[Makarov]

I thought Janeway's reaction to the organ thieves with the phage in early voyager was incredibly stupid, she basically lets them off with a stern warning after they already ripped out some crewmembers lungs.