Examples of Characters Doing Stupid Things

[enterprisecvn65]

Jellico was not there to make friends. He didn't have TIME to "inspire" the crew.

Yeah I don't really get that excuse, since Riker managed to find the time when the borg were closing in on earth. Morale is an important factor in a mission, even if crewmembers are duty bound to give their best in every situation. In this case he had crewmembers distraught over recently losing their captain and he made no effort to keep things running smoothly in that area. Get morale low enough and stuff starts to go wrong, as it did in this episode.

I knew I said my last post was it, but I'll keep it relatively short.

Riker's job is to figure out the needs of his CO and work with him to accomplish those goals. Not Jellico's job to figure how to make Riker happy. Can't stress this point enough. This would apply in a normal command situation. It should DOUBLY applied to this situation because

1. Jellico was tasked with the mission of talking to the Cardassians, while at the same time preparing for the possibly large scale combat with them. So his plate was pretty full.

2. Riker had been on the Enterprise for years, where Jellico was transferred suddenly for a very specific and tense situation. Riker had a much greater ability to help the crew deal and keep morale up. Instead he aired his issues in the open in a hostile manner. I think Riker agreeing with people when they complained about Jellico did a lot more to lower morale than Jellico's style or expectations.

As for the crew......In the military when the CO gives you orders that may be demanding, but are totally reasonable, you generally don't get the luxury of asking "Why?" The "Why" is because your CO gave you an order and you are duty bound to obey it.

But let's say for giggles the crew is used to asking why and expecting an answer. When Jellico asks Geordi to improve the engines, or Riker to shift the duty schedule, or Beverly to prepare sick bay and they ask "Why?" The answer....because there's a realistic chance this ship may soon be engaged in combat I want it at it's maximum operational level in all aspects...That is an answer that trumps any gripes or concerns they may have.

Jellico was doing the most important thing a CO can do, give his ship and crew the best chance to survive combat. Given the suddenness of his assignment and the multiple roles he had it's completely understandable he'd be all business and not have time to make nicey nice with the crew to "inspire them." He was inspiring them by having them do things to help them keep breathing, not by making flowery speeches.

If the crew needed pats on the head as well to feel inspired Riker, not Jellico, was the one in the best position to address that issue, especially given his relationships with the crew. Instead he chose to turn Jellico's character into a personal issue and make an antagonistic relationship between them instead of helping Jellico out in the areas he couldn't address, whether it be because of his personality or his time constraints.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

I'm sure the writers intent when creating this show was to make Jellico look like a tyrant with unrealistic demands, which would contrast with Picard's more warm and open relationship with his crew and make Jellico look like a total a-hole and Riker and the crew of the Enterprise victims of his ability as captain that the audience would feel sorry for them.

Instead it came off, to me at least, as Jellico not being the most pleasant person but still a great captain and one who knew the situation the ship was facing and was doing what was necessary to prepare for it. While Riker and the most of the other main crew all looked like a bunch of complainers and crybabies because they didn't liked the increased demands, despite the fact it might keep them from dying, and Jellico wasn't giving them candy. So all they did was sit around and piss and moan that "This isn't what Picard would have done."

Big fail by the writers.

 

[Lance]

^ I think its Ronnie Cox's performance that swings it, enterprisecvn65. As you say, 'as written' it's clear we're supposed to side with the Enterprise crew and be grateful when good ol' Jean Luc is brought back to us safe and sound, but Cox (perhaps unconsciously?) managed to create a surprisingly rich performance as Jellicoe, and many of us in the audience end up thinking that the likes of Riker and Troi are just being whiny unprofessional brats.

 

[BillJ]

^ I think its Ronnie Cox's performance that swings it, enterprisecvn65. As you say, 'as written' it's clear we're supposed to side with the Enterprise crew and be grateful when good ol' Jean Luc is brought back to us safe and sound, but Cox (perhaps unconsciously?) managed to create a surprisingly rich performance as Jellicoe, and many of us in the audience end up thinking that the likes of Riker and Troi are just being whiny unprofessional brats.

Ronny Cox was awesome in the episode.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

^ I think its Ronnie Cox's performance that swings it, enterprisecvn65. As you say, 'as written' it's clear we're supposed to side with the Enterprise crew and be grateful when good ol' Jean Luc is brought back to us safe and sound, but Cox (perhaps unconsciously?) managed to create a surprisingly rich performance as Jellicoe, and many of us in the audience end up thinking that the likes of Riker and Troi are just being whiny unprofessional brats.

That's a great point

Cox is very good at pulling off the "Tough and business like, but also reasonable and understanding" character that you end up liking. His role in "Beverly Hills Cop" was extremely similar to his one in TNG. I love that end scene in BVC when he realizes Axel, Taggart and Rosewood did the right thing by killing Maitland and his gang and saved Axel's and the girl's life, and he totally bullshits the police chief with his story about how he approved it and it was a joint operation with the Detroit Police.....Of course you can tell the chief doesn't believe it but is understanding enough to just say "OK, if that's what you say."

Perhaps they cast a guy that was TOO good in the role and made the character deeper than they intended. Nice analysis.

Of course Cox is also good at the total evil bastard role like in Robocop and Total Recall.

I like him as an actor a lot. He's also a hell of a banjo player IRL.

 

[fireproof78]

^ I think its Ronnie Cox's performance that swings it, enterprisecvn65. As you say, 'as written' it's clear we're supposed to side with the Enterprise crew and be grateful when good ol' Jean Luc is brought back to us safe and sound, but Cox (perhaps unconsciously?) managed to create a surprisingly rich performance as Jellicoe, and many of us in the audience end up thinking that the likes of Riker and Troi are just being whiny unprofessional brats.

That's a great point

Cox is very good at pulling off the "Tough and business like, but also reasonable and understanding" character that you end up liking. His role in "Beverly Hills Cop" was extremely similar to his one in TNG. I love that end scene in BVC when he realizes Axel, Taggart and Rosewood did the right thing by killing Maitland and his gang and saved Axel's and the girl's life, and he totally bullshits the police chief with his story about how he approved it and it was a joint operation with the Detroit Police.....Of course you can tell the chief doesn't believe it but is understanding enough to just say "OK, if that's what you say."

Perhaps they cast a guy that was TOO good in the role and made the character deeper than they intended. Nice analysis.

Of course Cox is also good at the total evil bastard role like in Robocop and Total Recall.

I like him as an actor a lot. He's also a hell of a banjo player IRL.

I think he is an excellent actor, though I never liked his character in Stargate: SG-1

Also, someone touched on this idea but it would have been fun to see him return to his old ship or command, just to see his "normal" command and crew. That would have been quite enjoyable

 

[BillJ]

Also, someone touched on this idea but it would have been fun to see him return to his old ship or command, just to see his "normal" command and crew. That would have been quite enjoyable

Unfortunately, all the novels and comics I've seen interpret him as being a dick. No one seems to want to take into account the type of situation Jellico was walking into.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Actually, from what I remember, Jellico was quite a distinguished admiral once he made flag rank. He may have been a dick to some people, like Mac Calhoun, but he was still a good officer.

I mean, if Jellico was so bad, would he have done what he eventually did?

Spoiler: Destiny trilogy

By this time he was the admiral in charge of the whole Starfleet. After the Borg invasion, Jellico resigned, thinking he had not done enough - he felt great guilt over all the death and destruction and so, even though he surely did the best he could, he stepped down, due to his personal sense of honor.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

Also, someone touched on this idea but it would have been fun to see him return to his old ship or command, just to see his "normal" command and crew. That would have been quite enjoyable

Unfortunately, all the novels and comics I've seen interpret him as being a dick. No one seems to want to take into account the type of situation Jellico was walking into.

If he's pretty much a straight out dick then I'd have to say Ronnie Cox did too good a job.....

Personally even though he was obviously a more demanding and abrasive person than Picard I actually found him likable in many scenes. Like when he talks about his kids artwork, or when he plans out acting like madman with the Cardassians ahead of time, or when he's sympathetic towards Troi's concerns but says he needs her to handle it (and for some reason she's shocked!?!?!?!?!?!? and especially when he has bombs planted and he has no problem letting the Gul know the very bad position he's now in........and then almost casually says BTW return Picard......IMMEDIATELY.

Maybe they should have had Cox watch his performance in Robocop and say "THIS is what we want."

I could just imagine Riker going to his quarters after being relieved and turning on his screen and there's a message saying

"Hello, buddy boy...
"Captain Jellico here. Sorry I had to relieve you of your duties. You don't feel so cocky now, do you Will? You know what the tragedy is here, Will? We could've been friends. You wouldn't go through the proper channels. You went over my head. That hurt. But life goes on, it's an old story, the fight for love and glory, huh Will? It helps if you think of it as a game. Every game has a winner... and a loser. I'm....cashing....you....out, Will."

Then Riker's quarters explode in a giant fireball. That might have made me think..."Hmmmmm Jellico may have gone too far this time, I guess he kind of a dick after all."

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

Unfortunately, all the novels and comics I've seen interpret him as being a dick. No one seems to want to take into account the type of situation Jellico was walking into.

Which is a shame. No character behaves exactly the same in every situation. Jellico's behavior made perfect sense given the threat the Cardassians represented, but there's no reason to think he was always that tightly-wound.

--Sran

 

[Smellmet]

Any of the bridge crew not. Turning. The. Fucking. Lights. Up. When the Remans boarded the Enterprise in Nemesis.

That is the definition of stupid.

 

[Makarov]

Perhaps Riker should've led by example and made the best of, to him, a bad situation.

I think he should have, but that doesn't make Jellico any smarter in his own morale strategy.

As for crew morale? That's their job, to put aside personal feelings and focus on the task at hand.

I can't imagine a Captain reporting to Starfleet command after his crew breaks down and saying "Morale? That was their job." Maybe he could blame it on Troi as he has assigned her to take care of it, but he is still ultimately responsible. Especially when it was a crew known to be one of the best in the fleet.

As for Jellico being new to the crew, Data was assigned to a different ship when he dealt with his insubordinate crewmember. He also disobeyed a direct order as well in the same episode. The entire plan would not have been successful if he stuck to his military rank role and didn't think outside the box.

 

[Cyke101]

Actually, from what I remember, Jellico was quite a distinguished admiral once he made flag rank. He may have been a dick to some people, like Mac Calhoun, but he was still a good officer.

I mean, if Jellico was so bad, would he have done what he eventually did?

Spoiler: Destiny trilogy

By this time he was the admiral in charge of the whole Starfleet. After the Borg invasion, Jellico resigned, thinking he had not done enough - he felt great guilt over all the death and destruction and so, even though he surely did the best he could, he stepped down, due to his personal sense of honor.

Heh, contrast to all the evil, power-hungry, corrupt Starfleet admirals we've encountered over the years, and Jellico's practically a saint.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

Perhaps Riker should've led by example and made the best of, to him, a bad situation.

I think he should have, but that doesn't make Jellico any smarter in his own morale strategy.

As for crew morale? That's their job, to put aside personal feelings and focus on the task at hand.

I can't imagine a Captain reporting to Starfleet command after his crew breaks down and saying "Morale? That was their job." Maybe he could blame it on Troi as he has assigned her to take care of it, but he is still ultimately responsible. Especially when it was a crew known to be one of the best in the fleet.


As for Jellico being new to the crew, Data was assigned to a different ship when he dealt with his insubordinate crewmember. He also disobeyed a direct order as well in the same episode. The entire plan would not have been successful if he stuck to his military rank role and didn't think outside the box.

Consensus seems to be Riker blew it and acted way out of line. The reasons have been clearly laid out. Try to accept it and move on. I applaud your spirit but you can only defend rank insubordination and overtly disrespectful and hostile actions towards your CO so much.

If that scenario had been played out in reality chances are excellent Picard would have been looking for a new first officer when he was released. Because Riker would either be relieved of duty pending a court martial hearing or looking for a career completely because he's no longer a member of starfleet.

And spare me the "People have conflicts at work and don't always get fired" bit. There's a slight difference between having a dust up with your boss over some sales report numbers and open insubordination to a superior officer in the military when the ship is in a tense situation that could lead to full scale war.

 

[Nightdiamond]

If anything it made the crew looked pampered and too comfortable in that episode.

The Enterprise crew usually calls themselves "the best", but in a crunch situation like that, they had problems following relatively simple orders.

Troi doesn't like it when Jericho tells her to wear a uniform on duty. For years she was wearing the casual dresses and outfits on duty. A simple uniform change.

Geordi subtly gripes in front of Jericho, then later complains about the changes and the extra work to Riker, and suggest Riker to talk to Picard about getting him to change things.

Isn't this crew supposed to be the best?

Riker was given a clear order to increase the shifts to 4, and then totally disregards it. When Jericho asks about it later, he had to tell him--he didn't change it. That's why he got dressed down a little

The episode seemed to want to portray Jericho as a flawed captain then kind of forgot all about it. There's a scene where Riker comments that Jericho seems pretty sure of himself.

Troi then gives a serious look and replies "No--he's not" with the serious music following and all.

So now, we're supposed to know there's something wrong with Jericho.

Then later it's like the episode forgets that, and Jericho ends up saving Picard and preventing hostility from breaking out.

 

[Makarov]

Star Trek is not reality, it's not the military IRL, it is a story where people break rank all day long and still keep their jobs. Infact it was the very reason Picard chose Riker to serve on the enterprise. I agree to disagree but I'm not going to accept your viewpoint simply due to consensus, what are we the borg collective? Anyway we can get the thread back onto it's rails now.

 

[Cyke101]

It seems that plenty of the crew's objections could have been addressed preemptively by a simple meeting called by Jellico. he'd just have to say, "These are the changes I need," followed by, "And this is why I need them." Providing context before hand creates personal buy in, and unites people on the grander vision and shared goals. Giving orders right then and there without expecting to explain yourself, or explaining only after being prompted, creates confusion.

But I say that bit of Monday-morning quarterbacking as someone who's firmly in the camp that the crew was inappropriate for much of that mission anyway. To me they get the bulk of the blame here, but there are leadership techniques designed to cut that out before it becomes an issue.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

The episode seemed to want to portray Jericho as a flawed captain then kind of forgot all about it. There's a scene where Riker comments that Jericho seems pretty sure of himself.

Troi then gives a serious look and replies "No--he's not" with the serious music following and all.

So now, we're supposed to know there's something wrong with Jericho.

Then later it's like the episode forgets that, and Jericho ends up saving Picard and preventing hostility from breaking out.

Thank you for bringing up that point. It's a great episode but that particular thread was done in a piss poor way.

So Jellico comes aboard and takes charge in a no nonsense manner and knows what he wants done.

Then he plans a good cop/bad cop strategy for dealing with the Cardassians with him as the bad cop. Seems like a good idea to have a plan ahead of time, especially since the Cardassians are bound to be confrontational.

So like you said Riker comments on how confident and Troi says in a worried and ominous tone "No, he's not."

So the audience is like "Wow. Since Troi is an empath she knows something about him that is not good.....I wonder what it is and when it will rear its ugly head and put the Enterprise in jeopardy.....well let's see."

Then it never comes up again!!!!! He doesn't do anything crazy, he doesn't have a mental breakdown, it's not mentioned again even in passing. All he does is hold his own in discussions, send the Cardassians home in humiliation and saved Picard. What was this terrible thing about him Troi sensed and seemed to think could lead to disaster? Talk about a tease.

Why have it in a the show if there are no ramifications at some point?

It's almost like if Vader said "Obi Wan never told you what happened to your father." Then when Luke responds he told me you killed him, Vader goes "No".....and doesn't say another word and it never comes up again.

 

[Makarov]

I think the point of the "no he's not" line is to just show that behind Jellico's confident demeanor he's actually unsure and nervous about the whole situation, nothing more. It humanizes him a little more. But at least for once Troi is revealing something that isn't too obvious to the audience.

 

[Cyke101]

I think the point of the "no he's not" line is to just show that behind Jellico's confident demeanor he's actually unsure and nervous about the whole situation, nothing more. It humanizes him a little more. But at least for once Troi is revealing something that isn't too obvious to the audience.

That's the impression that I got, too. Not that there was any deep, dark secret or revelation, but that he understood the consequences of a face off with unimaginably high stakes, and that plenty was resting on his shoulders. One slip up and there'd be massive interstellar war once again.

Frankly, I'd expect that type of worry from captains like Picard, Sisko, Janeway -- in other words, I'd expect it from the best of them. Anyone who is cocky and not scared in that situation probably doesn't fully understand the situation, and I wouldn't trust him. Those who do understand and get nervous from it but succeed despite it tend to be among the cooler heads in command.

In fact, I'd argue that we did get at least one change from that revelation -- the situation was too important to keep Riker sidelined, and Jellico knew it. His pride shouldn't stand in the way of a mission like that, so he had to speak to Riker one-on-one for the job. If you're uncertain about something serious, you try to use every tool at your disposal, after all.