Examples of Characters Doing Stupid Things

[Makarov]

Pretty sure Kirk stealing the enterprise goes against his being bound by duty, he still did it. Picard was also bound to release Data to be disassembled for the good of starfleet, he fought against it.

So Shelby meets Riker and soon decided she doesn't like him. Why? Because she thinks Riker is arrogant and closed minded towards her advice or plans because he basically shuts her down immediately for no reason other than he's in charge (gee sounds familiar)

For the most part Shelby wanted his job and felt he was in her way. But even with their disagreements the difference between Riker and Jellico is that Riker utilized a disobedient first officer where as Jellico squandered his. Riker recognized her good qualities and put his personal differences aside to get the mission done.

If Wes and Geordi are too tired to plan then let them go to bed, but, with the possible fate of earth on the line, to force the person who is an expert in the Borg to sleep when she wants to carry on WTF?

And what happens when they run into the borg and their borg expert has slowed reaction times from not sleeping?

 

[USS Triumphant]

Pretty sure Kirk stealing the enterprise goes against his being bound by duty, he still did it. Picard was also bound to release Data to be disassembled for the good of starfleet, he fought against it.

Kirk stealing the Enterprise is hard to argue for on any except a personal level, but I would say that Picard fighting Data's disassembly and the disregard of Data's rights as a person was very much *required* by his duty. Perhaps not his immediate orders, but his higher duty to maintain the honor and dignity of Starfleet and the Federation generally.

 

[Makarov]

Pretty sure Kirk stealing the enterprise goes against his being bound by duty, he still did it. Picard was also bound to release Data to be disassembled for the good of starfleet, he fought against it.

Kirk stealing the Enterprise is hard to argue for on any except a personal level, but I would say that Picard fighting Data's disassembly and the disregard of Data's rights as a person was very much *required* by his duty. Perhaps not his immediate orders, but his higher duty to maintain the honor and dignity of Starfleet and the Federation generally.

Fair enough that's kind of a stretch, but if you want to take it to that level, then Riker also had a higher duty to protect Picard, considering that he took it upon himself in the very first episode to put the safety of the captain first. And Picard was not dead but was about to be a sacrificed for the greater good of Starfleet as well. Data's situation had widespread ramifications but Picard did it first and foremost to protect his friend.

 

[Trekkin]

My sister is in the navy. People aren't expected to mindlessly follow orders - there's just very specific situations and methods to express dissatisfaction. Contradicting tactical orders during a combat situation on nothing more than personal feelings, is not one of those times.

Picard took his protest through official channels, and he apparently had the right to do so. The entire purpose of the trial was for him to argue that he didn't have a duty to release Data, that he in fact had competing duties that demanded he shouldn't, and that Starfleet were failing theirs by demanding he do so.

Evidently the interpretation of Federation law agreed with Picard - Data has rights, and Starfleets duty to protect those trumped Picard and Data's duty to follow orders.

Star Trek has never suggested that unique Starfleet personnel have a duty to let themselves be dissected because there might be the possibility of scientific advancement.

 

[tharpdevenport]

"The Nth Degree"

If Barclay is the smartest human ever, then why is he running toward a holodeck while the reactors are about to go critical on the array, and not using a site-to-site transport? It was stated as only minutes away from destruction.


"Hollow Pursuits"

If all Geordi has is a working theory and only five minutes until the ship flies part, why are he and Barclay walking at a quick pace to the cargo bay? Why not use an emergency site-to-site transporter, since only one transporter room is infected?


"Datalore"

Lore disguised as Data suggesting to beam out a large tree and destroy it.
Picard actually agreeing to that.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

Pretty sure Kirk stealing the enterprise goes against his being bound by duty, he still did it. Picard was also bound to release Data to be disassembled for the good of starfleet, he fought against it.

So Shelby meets Riker and soon decided she doesn't like him. Why? Because she thinks Riker is arrogant and closed minded towards her advice or plans because he basically shuts her down immediately for no reason other than he's in charge (gee sounds familiar)

For the most part Shelby wanted his job and felt he was in her way. But even with their disagreements the difference between Riker and Jellico is that Riker utilized a disobedient first officer where as Jellico squandered his. Riker recognized her good qualities and put his personal differences aside to get the mission done.

If Wes and Geordi are too tired to plan then let them go to bed, but, with the possible fate of earth on the line, to force the person who is an expert in the Borg to sleep when she wants to carry on WTF?

And what happens when they run into the borg and their borg expert has slowed reaction times from not sleeping?

Oh the old "Other guys broke their duty too so it's ok Riker did it" yeah that excuse always works when you're in trouble and you say "Others did it too". Kirk stealing the Enterprise doesn't somehow magically make Riker's totally unrelated actions justified.

All right let's get down to brass tacks. Name ONE thing that Jellico did to question his mental sanity or moral judgement to the point where Riker was justified in being openly insubordinate and deciding to carry out his CO's orders on his own timetable. If you can do that you win.

And refusing to protect Picard isn't one. He was responsible for stopping the Cardassians. Admitting Picard was on a secret mission would have compromised that objective. Picard was a loss that they might have to take. He got Picard back as soon as he could without risking his position.

So you're saying Jellico is just supposed to stand there and take Riker's actions right in the middle of a combat situation and go "Well he's got some good qualities so I should just let rank insubordination slide".

Here's a thought: why doesn't Riker overlook Jellico's personal flaws and see his gifts as a captain and decide to work with him because of those talents? Apparently in your universe though a captain is responsible for making his XO happy when he acts like a five year old having a tantrum and relieving him is way out of line.

As for Shelby, Riker used her talents because he had no choice, he wasn't happy about it. He even said he had concluded "reluctantly " she was the best choice for XO at that time. Talk about a backhanded promotion. I do it reluctantly but you're promoted congrats.

Uh and I hate to tell you but Jellico did utilize Riker's talents as a pilot. Please tell me what other talents Riker was showing at that time asides from bitching how mean Jellico was and challenging him openly and hostilely right in the middle of an explosive situation.

And as for your slowed reflexes comment.....that's just too absurd to take seriously. I doubt missing a few hours sleep would have slowed her so much it would have destroyed the Enterprise. People have different energy levels and just because Wes and Geordi were tired doesn't mean she was.

Also there's this thing called adrenaline the human body produces in times of danger or stress. I'm certain, even if she was tired, once she saw the cube the old adrenaline levels would have kicked up to maximum and "fatigue" wouldn't have been an issue.

Riker was the junior office, Jellico was his senior. The onus was on Riker to make it work as best he could. He didn't do so and was a putz for the way he acted. Accept it.

 

[Makarov]

Riker had every right to question him and point out mistakes, part of his job.

Shelby was Riker's subordinate and yet you take her side, why? Do you just hate Riker? Maybe he didn't want her running on adrenaline, it's his call as the superior officer.

So you're saying Jellico is just supposed to stand there and take Riker's actions right in the middle of a combat situation and go "Well he's got some good qualities so I should just let rank insubordination slide".

No, he could take Riker aside and talk to him in private. As Data did when Worf was insubordinate, or as Riker did when Shelby was insubordinate. Both those situations they ended up using the insubordinate crew member to the best of their ability. You know, what a good leader would do. Jellico didn't inspire that. Doesn't make him wrong for removing Riker, but as per the topic, it was a stupid course of action.

In your world inspiring your team isn't the job of the captian - all lower rank crewmembers are just expendable cogs in a machine that can be replaced, and they're little children if they ever question their superiors.

Riker didn't have to promote Shelby, he did it because, he believed in her for the mission and he took the time to inspire her confidence as well. And he did that when the borg were on earth's doorstep, a much worse enemy than Cardassians.

Data even keeps a first officer that was blatantly insubordinate and doubted his ability to captain the ship and he inspired that guy rather than tossing him aside.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

^And this is where I think Star Trek often comes up short where the portrayal of guest captains and admirals is concerned; the novels have done a much better job of fleshing out supporting captains, to the extent that previously recurring characters like Clark Terrell and Atish Khatami are now the lead characters in the Seekers series.

All too often, guest captains have been--either deliberately or otherwise--portrayed as being less than the captain serving as the series lead. Jellico's approach may have been much more blunt and hard-nosed, but that doesn't mean it was any less effective.

Data utilized a much more soft-spoken and patient approach because said approach was consistent with his character; Jellico's approach was (likely) consisent with his; Riker was wrong to challenge him in front of other crew members, and he was wrong to gloat in front of him when Jellico asked him to pilot the shuttlecraft.

--Sran

 

[BillJ]

Fair enough that's kind of a stretch, but if you want to take it to that level, then Riker also had a higher duty to protect Picard, considering that he took it upon himself in the very first episode to put the safety of the captain first. And Picard was not dead but was about to be a sacrificed for the greater good of Starfleet as well.

Picard was no longer Riker's captain.

 

[Makarov]

Fair enough that's kind of a stretch, but if you want to take it to that level, then Riker also had a higher duty to protect Picard, considering that he took it upon himself in the very first episode to put the safety of the captain first. And Picard was not dead but was about to be a sacrificed for the greater good of Starfleet as well.

Picard was no longer Riker's captain.

So if Data was no longer a member of the enterprise, Picard wouldn't go fight for his rights? Yes he would.

 

[Trekkin]

That depends - series 1 Picard, the majority of TNG Picard, Movie Picard?

Picard would do whatever the writers decided he would, because of whatever justification they provided to make the plot work. Picard is a character who in one episode was willing to sacrifice his girlfriend because of his responsibilities as captain, and also was a character unwilling to leave Data behind in FC even though his actions could doom the future of the Federation. It 'could have' gone either way, and so there's not much point in using a hypothetical to try and support your point.

 

[Cyke101]

Movie Picard would have fought for Data's rights with a phaser rifle in the courtroom.

But he would have fought for Data's rights nonetheless.

 

[enterprisecvn65]

Riker had every right to question him and point out mistakes, part of his job.

Shelby was Riker's subordinate and yet you take her side, why? Do you just hate Riker? Maybe he didn't want her running on adrenaline, it's his call as the superior officer.

So you're saying Jellico is just supposed to stand there and take Riker's actions right in the middle of a combat situation and go "Well he's got some good qualities so I should just let rank insubordination slide".

No, he could take Riker aside and talk to him in private. As Data did when Worf was insubordinate, or as Riker did when Shelby was insubordinate. Both those situations they ended up using the insubordinate crew member to the best of their ability. You know, what a good leader would do. Jellico didn't inspire that. Doesn't make him wrong for removing Riker, but as per the topic, it was a stupid course of action.

In your world inspiring your team isn't the job of the captian - all lower rank crewmembers are just expendable cogs in a machine that can be replaced, and they're little children if they ever question their superiors.

Riker didn't have to promote Shelby, he did it because, he believed in her for the mission and he took the time to inspire her confidence as well. And he did that when the borg were on earth's doorstep, a much worse enemy than Cardassians.

Data even keeps a first officer that was blatantly insubordinate and doubted his ability to captain the ship and he inspired that guy rather than tossing him aside.

I understand where you get this idea that it's a regular part of a first officer's job to question and suggest alternatives. Star Trek has always, to make the characters likable and for plot reasons, always portrayed its COs as people who are cool with their orders or decisions being questioned on a regular basis by subordinates. When in reality it doesn't quite work that way.

Its a XO's job to question his CO's decisions if:

1. The CO has shown he is a person who welcomes that kind of input and doesn't mind alternatives being suggested.

OR

2. The CO is making a decision that is putting the safety and/or welfare of the ship and crew in extreme danger for no real reason.

In either case the XO, except in cases of extreme emergency where immediate action is required to avoid disaster, is NEVER, EVER supposed to question the CO's decisions in front of other crew members in the hostile and insubordinate way Riker did. Nor is the XO supposed to bitch to other crew members about how he doesn't like the captain or his style. He is supposed to keep his mouth shut and express his opinions in private. Doing so openly, except in the aforementioned exception, is a HUGE branch of protocol and often leads to careers being ended and/or being court marshaled

Picard was generally ok with alternatives being suggested, even when he didn't specifically ask. Good for him. Riker knew this and was comfortable with making his opinion known. And when he had strong differing opinions he didn't start screaming at Picard or go around to the other crew letting them know the old man was crazy.

If you watch the episode Jellico did actually solicit opinions from the crew in meetings. But when he gave an order, or was engaged in a possibly explosive situation, it was pretty clear his attitude was that he was calling the shots and, unless I ask for it, keep your alternatives to yourself and keep your mouth shut. This is hardly a unique feature in command. If commanders were "bad" because they acted this way, then basically most famous US military leaders would be bad because many of them shared this trait.

IMHO the way the crew reacts to Jellico makes them look like a bunch of crybabies because the new captain isn't good 'ol Picard and he's asking them to do things that made things harder and/or inconvenient.

I've asked you several times to give me one example where Jellico did something that showed he was unfit for command or putting the ship in extreme danger with no reason. You have yet to respond to that challenge, so that tells me a lot.

Let's look as Jellico's orders and interactions with the crew members.

1. He tells Riker, in calm and straightforward way, he wants the duty schedule changed. He had his reasons but didn't choose to explain them. Riker's reaction was basically "WHAT?!?!?! You want to change the duty schedule, don't you realize the hassles that will cause me and it will make people upset for changing their nice comfy schedule and they will bitch to me." So Riker decides to shelve the order until he can talk to Jellico. Jellico finds out his order wasn't carried out and gets upset........seems reasonable to me.

2. He tells Geordi, again in a calm and business matter, he wants the engine efficiency improved, which makes sense since the Enterprise might soon be involved in combat in all. Geordi's gets all bent out of shape and cries to Riker "It's good enough already, where does he get off wanting me to make it the best it can be for battle."

3. Troi comes to him with her concerns. He actually listens and acknowledges it but, again calmly, says he doesn't have the time to deal with it personally and asks Troi to handle it. Troi seems stunned a captain dealing with a hostile situation and possible combat isn't going to take time to have a feel good session with the crew and all sing kumbyah. She also seems stunned that he wants her, THE SHIP'S COUNSELOR, to handle a situation that involves the emotional state of the crew!!!!! Plus he gets her out of those ugly ass, and very unflattering, lavender and red leisure uniforms she alone apparently had some special privilege to wear, and into an actual starfleet uniform. And again he was quite calm when he asked her to do so.

4. Tells Beverly, in a businesslike manner, to get sick bay ready for casualities....Again seems like a perfect logical thing to do considering combat might be unavoidable. I know I'd want my medical staff ready as opposed to just sitting around waiting for the injured to actually arrive before they sprung into action getting people and equipment ready. She reacts with horror at the prospect that he is taking a ship that is designed for combat....into a situation that MIGHT ACTUALLY INVOLVE COMBAT!!!!! What the hell did she think starfleet was all these years? The Peace Corps? and she is shocked to learn that it operates in a military fashion at times?!?!?!?!

Tell me were any of these orders unreasonable, especially given the circumstances? Was he a complete like a North Korean leader in how he ordered them to be carried out? Yet the Enterprise crew reacts like a bunch of babies over all of them. I know the writers intent was to make Jellico look like a hard ass and unlikable, especially compared to good old Picard, but they failed miserably because he didn't ask anything unreasonable or was some raving madman. Instead the Enterprise crew look like a bunch of crybabies.

Data never seemed to have a problem with his commands, so they must have not have been unrational. Data was able to do it because he wasn't emotionally involved. The others who reacted all upset and let their emotions show so strongly were unprofessional and should have put aside their emotions the best they could and do their jobs.

And Jellico does not just casually toss Riker aside. He actually puts up with quite a lot from him and it's only when Riker flips out and starts shouting at him on the bridge because Jellico won't jeopardize the whole mission for Picard that he relieves him. Again Picard was not Jellico's responsibility, the mission was and if that meant Picard died.....that's war.

When you take on an assignment that involves sneaking around and enemy base in full black body suits you probably know there's a realistic chance of being captured or killed. Picard knew the risks, he accepted the mission and I'm sure Picard would have understood Jellico's rationale. Riker couldn't handle it though and was completely insubordinate and probably should have been court marshaled and possibly dismissed from starfleet as a result. Apparently mean old Jellico decided not to press the issue.

As for Data being so understanding and willing to overlook his actions and use his good qualities when commander what's his name was openly questioning him.....Data was seconds away from relieving him and told him clam up or you're gone and the guy was smart enough to do so. Riker wasn't.

You keep throwing all these other examples out like "Well Kirk stole the Enterprise, or Data took the insults from that guy" as justification for Riker. Why don't you try making an argument that stays within the confines of Jellico and Riker instead of these straw men comparisons.

Bottom line....Aside from their regular duties Jellico and Riker had very specific things they were responsible for.

Jellico-
1. Meet with the Cardassians and strongly state the Federations position on their claim on the planet in dispute- Did that

2. Prepare the Enterprise for battle- Did that.

3. Stop the Cardassians from using force to take over the planet- Did that and did it without having to fire a shot.

"Making sure the Enterprise crew isn't put out by bigger demands" or "Not hurting Riker's feelings and getting him upset" and "Making sure Picard comes back alive" weren't his directives.....Yet you seem to think they were.

Riker-
1. Support his commanding officer in WHATEVER WAY THE CO, NOT RIKER, SEES FIT in this tense situation. If that means shut your mouth and do what I say and save your suggestions for later......then that's what he needed to do and there is ZERO excuse, save extreme negligence or danger to the ship and crew, for Riker to act the way he did.

You keep defending what is basically indefensible. I've said enough and if you want to keep justifying Riker, knock yourself. But I'll leave you with these two things.

1. As I've said before show me one example where Jellico did something to question his mental stability as commander. You haven't done it yet and if you can't do it you don't have a leg to stand on. And saying "Well Kirk or Data or Picard or so and so did this in another episode" is a weak argument.

2. Let me know someday if, in a military or civilian capacity, you are in a position of authority and, in a tense situation, you are openly challenged and yelled at by your chief subordinate for no justifiable reason, let me know how calmly you handle the situation and decide to let it slide and use his good qualities.

Or let me know if you decide this kind of insubordination is unacceptable and you can his ass.

I don't have a crystal ball but I'd bet money the latter choice is far more likely the one you'd make.


Bravo Zulu. Carry on.

 

[Makarov]

I've asked you several times to give me one example where Jellico did something that showed he was unfit for command or putting the ship in extreme danger with no reason. You have yet to respond to that challenge, so that tells me a lot.

Jellico wasn't unfit for command, and no one tried to take the command away from him. Riker was voicing his opinion on the matter, not committing mutiny. Jellico had a lack of ability to inspire the crew and his resolution to the conflict with Riker wasn't smart. He knew the crew was having problems adjusting and he responds by relieving the first officer who they all knew and looked up to. This doesn't make him a bad captain necessarily, but in this moment I consider it a stupid decision.

2. Let me know someday if, in a military or civilian capacity, you are in a position of authority and, in a tense situation, you are openly challenged and yelled at by your chief subordinate for no justifiable reason, let me know how calmly you handle the situation and decide to let it slide and use his good qualities.

Anyone that works retail or on a group project knows you're gonna get yelled at by customers, your boss, your coworkers, and likely will have to to work through the issue and try to bring the team together. Kicking someone out is a pretty bad sign of leadership ability in those situations.

He knew Riker was upset about Picard therefore he knew the reason Riker was agitated, and if he had an ounce of people skills then that knowledge would have allowed him to diffuse the situation easily before it began. Or at the very least, reassign Riker before it become a shouting match.

And what you call straw men arguments I call extremely similar situations reacted to in smarter ways. The cardassians threatened war, the borg threatened the extinction of mankind and Riker still took the time to inspire his team and bring them together during Best of Both Worlds.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Re: Jericho; The crew's naivety wasn't the exactly brightest thing in that episode either.

The crew was so against Jericho, it seemed like they wanted to believe the exact opposite of anything Jericho advocated.

They were willing to believe the Cardassians had an entire fleet in the nebulae, because they wanted to do "scientific research".

They just seemed really reluctant to back Jericho or take any real action. Because Jericho's style of command was not as proper and easy as to what they were used to.

Ironically, Jericho ended up being exactly right--and his brashness was what actually rescued Picard.

Another one-- Shelby wanting to talk about career choices while the Enterprise was hiding in some gas cloud desperately hoping the Borg couldn't find them.

There was no guarantee they'd get out and she's talking about Riker giving up one command after another.


Picard letting Hugh go after Data and Geordi told him they could use him to spread a virus that could destroy the entire collective.

The hope was that his new found individuality would have an effect. It probably cost thousands of lives and came back to haunt the federation--twice.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Riker was voicing his opinion on the matter, not committing mutiny.

The problem wasn't *that* Riker was stating his opinion. He was doing it as a snarky, smug jackass, not respecting the chain of command at all. That's the issue here.

Jellico had a lack of ability to inspire the crew and his resolution to the conflict with Riker wasn't smart. He knew the crew was having problems adjusting and he responds by relieving the first officer who they all knew and looked up to.

Jellico was not there to make friends. He didn't have TIME to "inspire" the crew. He was there to get them whipped into shape and to do it fast, and he succeeded in it. He's not there to be the happy joy-joy type that Picard was. He's there because he is an expert in dealing with Cardassians, and everyone should have known it.

The only reason that anyone had any kind of conflict with Jellico was simply because he wasn't Picard. Everyone expected Picard, and they just bitched and moaned when they didn't get it.

 

[fireproof78]

2. Let me know someday if, in a military or civilian capacity, you are in a position of authority and, in a tense situation, you are openly challenged and yelled at by your chief subordinate for no justifiable reason, let me know how calmly you handle the situation and decide to let it slide and use his good qualities.

Or let me know if you decide this kind of insubordination is unacceptable and you can his ass.

I don't have a crystal ball but I'd bet money the latter choice is far more likely the one you'd make.


Bravo Zulu. Carry on.

Not to derail the thread on management style, but I have lost my cool with my boss and another assistant manager and the worst that happened was a minor talking to. Perhaps different circumstances and the like, and it certainly has not happened again, but there are situational differences that must be taken in to account.

However, in Riker's case, I certainly don't agree with his actions. Just saying, it is not always so cut and dry.

 

[Makarov]

Jellico was not there to make friends. He didn't have TIME to "inspire" the crew.

Yeah I don't really get that excuse, since Riker managed to find the time when the borg were closing in on earth. Morale is an important factor in a mission, even if crewmembers are duty bound to give their best in every situation. In this case he had crewmembers distraught over recently losing their captain and he made no effort to keep things running smoothly in that area. Get morale low enough and stuff starts to go wrong, as it did in this episode.

 

[BillJ]

Jellico was not there to make friends. He didn't have TIME to "inspire" the crew.

Yeah I don't really get that excuse, since Riker managed to find the time when the borg were closing in on earth. Morale is an important factor in a mission, even if crewmembers are duty bound to give their best in every situation. In this case he had crewmembers distraught over recently losing their captain and he made no effort to keep things running smoothly in that area. Get morale low enough and stuff starts to go wrong, as it did in this episode.

Perhaps Riker should've led by example and made the best of, to him, a bad situation.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

In BOBW, Riker had the luxury of already being a regular member of the crew, so everyone was used to his style (even as captain).

If Starfleet had decided to assign another captain to Enterprise for the Borg situation, whoever it was would have run into EXACTLY the same problem as Jellico did here. There was an immediate crisis situation, and a new captain doesn't have time to make nice with everyone. They're there to do a JOB, and do it fast.

As for crew morale? That's their job, to put aside personal feelings and focus on the task at hand.

All the Jellico-haters might have been mollified if we had gotten a look at the Cairo. I'm sure his regular crew on that ship were just as used to him as the Ent-D crew was to Picard...