Evidence of SNW being a possible alternate timeline from TOS

[Turtletrekker]

Colonel Green was a human who seems to embrace eugenics philosophies. He killed entire population centers that were suffering from radiation poisoning in order to prevent genetic impurities from spreading.

 

[Ghouleddie74]

Green's forces and movement (in my head canon the Optimum Movement, thanks to the Reeves-Stevenses) would definitely have been philosophical fellow travelers of if not actual allies of those like Khan. Green was more genocidal and brutal than many of the genetic supermen, but at the end of the day both wanted a "stronger, more pure" world ruled through raw strength and an unshakable will.

 

[Yistaan]

Ricardo Montalban was 46 during filming Space Seed, and his character had just woken from a time period of ruling for 4 years (1992-1996 in Space Seed, meaning he took over at 42 if Khan is the same age as Montalban.

However, Spock says in the same episode that Khan was one of the "young supermen" who took power. Mid 40s isn't really young.

The kid who played Khan in 2022 was 11 during filming. Khan being 42 during the Eugenics Wars would put the Eugenics Wars starting in 2053, AFTER WW3. Shoving Khan's age backwards to a pre-WW3 date won't account for how old Khan looks in Space Seed and WoK, even if you have the Eugenics Wars from 2032-2036, at most Khan should be 25 in Space Seed and 43 in WoK, and as good shape as Ricardo Montalban was in during WoK, you're not going to convince anyone that Khan's supposed to be 43 in that movie. (Ironically I think this is the age range Cox put Khan in in his Eugenics Wars novels regardless)

It's a mess and has been from the start since Montalban was probably cast too old for the timeline of the character even in Space Seed, especially once Spock started describing Khan as a "young" superman.

 

[Ghouleddie74]

Khan wasn't the same age as Montalban. I'd throw actual actor ages into the trash and ignore them. If they were critical to storytelling and timelines in-universe then Picard's age would upturn so much. Patrick Stewart was 12 years younger than Jean-Luc Picard.

 

[Canonical Continuity]

actor age ≠ character age

 

[fireproof78]

People forgetting about my good buddy Keniclius:

COMPUTER: Working. From Earth history file. Stavos Keniclius. Earth scientist, period, Eugenics Wars.
COMPUTER: Planned to clone perfect specimen prototype into master race. Concept considered anti-humanistic. Banned from community. Disappeared. No evidence of death. No further data.
MCCOY: There used to be a story about a modern Diogenes wandering the galaxy looking for someone special.
KIRK: Someone special. A perfect specimen, perhaps. Yes, I've heard it too.
MCCOY: It couldn't be Keniclius. He'd be over two hundred and fifty years old.
KIRK: Not if he cloned a new copy of himself every so often to carry on the search. Remember, he said he was Keniclius Five.

(Infinite Vulcan, TAS)

 

[Ghouleddie74]

If that were the case, man, would a lot of Trek casts and characters be in deep trouble.

 

[Yistaan]

Fair enough. I suppose hellish Ceti Alpha V is bad enough to turn anyone prematurely gray.

 

[Fire(BOO!)]

actor age ≠ character age

You'd think this would be the simplest concept for folks to get, and yet...

 

[Ghouleddie74]

And appearances can be even trickier. Scotty in Season 4 is forty.

Forty. But Martin Quinn looks 25 on a bad day.

 

[Yistaan]

As I like to mention, Bruce Maddox was at least 83 when he died in Picard (his age can be calculated as being old enough in a command position to deny Data's academy application, which the Kelvin movies show can be as young as 25). Maybe Patrick Stewart should've put on a beard and wig for a dual role to get the age right.

 

[FrankenTron]

Well, no. Since you're obviously not going to be convinced TNG made this change, how about another pre-SNW Trek series? Specifically Enterprise, in the episode Hatchery, Archer mentions his great-grandfather fought in the Eugenics Wars. 1990s would be too far back for a great-grandfather, but the 2050s (which is when FC established WWIII occurred) would be just the right time period for a great-grandfather. So Enterprise at least did seem to treat the Eugenics Wars and WWIII as the same, or at the very least, as happening at the same time.

Ok. So how old was his great grandfather when he fought in the eugenics war?

 

[Ghouleddie74]

If he was fighting on the ground alongside fellow American soldiers in North Africa then he was not some senior citizen past their prime and not able to conduct basic infantry maneuvers and actions. 20s? 30s? So he'd be born around 2010 or so?

 

[FrankenTron]

If he was fighting on the ground alongside fellow American soldiers in North Africa then he was not some senior citizen past their prime and not able to conduct basic infantry maneuvers and actions. 20s? 30s? So he'd be born around 2010 or so?

If Archers great grandfather was 18 in 1996 at the last year if the eugenics war it easily works right up to Captain Archers birth in 2112.

 

[CampBOO!]

If Archers great grandfather was 18 in 1996 at the last year if the eugenics war it easily works right up to Captain Archers birth in 2012.

I presume you mean 2112?

Archer was most certainly not born in 2012.

If his great grandfather was born in 1978, had kids by 30, that child had Henry Archer by 30, then Henry had Jonathan, that would be 2078. There’s wiggle room but not enough to get it to 2112.

 

[fireproof78]

I presume you mean 2112?

Archer was most certainly not born in 2012.

Lanthanite confirmed

 

[Haunt Rod]

If Archers great grandfather was 18 in 1996 at the last year if the eugenics war it easily works right up to Captain Archers birth in 2012.

Face it, my man. You can move the goalposts all you want, but the fact remains that the Eugenics Wars were retconned into the 21st century. Not by Kurtzman. Not by J.J. Abrams. It was done by Gene Roddenberry and Rick Berman.

During TOS in the 1960s, the Eugenics Wars were said to have been the last of Earth's World Wars. That would mean World War III. At the time, this was all said to have occurred during the 1990s.

Flash forward to the late '80s, and you have TNG, in its very first episode, establishing World War III as a 21st-century conflict, complete with a nuclear exchange. That would certainly seem to match Spock's description of whole populations being bombed out of existence.

It's all further solidified by First Contact and Enterprise, which go into greater detail about the war and mention Archer's great-grandfather fighting in what would have been a 21st-century conflict. You also have multiple examples from DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise traveling to the late '90s and early 21st century and showing zero signs of the war. Not even a mention.

You want to blame SNW so badly for something you don't like that you just can't accept that you're wrong. You won't dare put the blame on something you actually like. No, it has to be that dirty Alex Kurtzman's fault! Or maybe that stooge Goldsman's! It must be them! It has to be them!

 

[Ghouleddie74]

And I've seen one birth year as 2110, making him forty-one in "Broken Bow." Either way, his great-grandfather could have been a young enlisted man or even officer in North Africa with an early 21st century birthdate.

 

[Boo-khat!]

This

I never said you weren't welcome to interpret TMP however you like. I was pointing out that an in-universe reason was given for the change, as opposed to no reason with SNW, which are two different things.

 

[FrankenTron]

I presume you mean 2112?

Archer was most certainly not born in 2012.

If his great grandfather was born in 1978, had kids by 30, that child had Henry Archer by 30, then Henry had Jonathan, that would be 2078. There’s wiggle room but not enough to get it to 2112.

2112. If he had kids late in life it most certainly would work.