Ever Notice His Hand Wrapped?

[JonnyQuest037]

It's little details like this that I quite love about The Cage. I like how it starts just after a crisis, that's great world-building, suggesting a history that exists before the episode begins.

Yes. And when the footage from "The Cage" was used as the basis for "The Menagerie," it really gave the Star Trek Universe and the Enterprise a tangible history. We found out that the ship went back at least 13 years, that it had another Captain before Kirk, that Vulcans were longer lived than humans, that Starfleet went back at least 31 years (13 years ago + the crash of the Columbia 18 years before that)... That two-parter really fleshed out the ST Universe considerably and made it feel more "real" than other science fiction shows.

True, except Pike wasn't the only one affected by what happened.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Are you referencing something from the second season of Discovery? (I haven't seen it yet, so no spoilers please.)

 

[MAGolding]

True, except Pike wasn't the only one affected by what happened.

BOYCE: Sometimes a man will tell his bartender things he'll never tell his doctor. What's been on your mind, Chris, the fight on Rigel seven?
PIKE: Shouldn't it be? My only yeoman and two others dead, seven injured.
BOYCE: Was there anything you personally could have done to prevent it?
PIKE: Oh, I should have smelled trouble when I saw the swords and the armour. Instead of that, I let myself get trapped in that deserted fortress and attacked by one of their warriors.

So three crew pwersons were killed, seven were wounded, Pike apparently survived without a noticeable wound, making a total of eleven crew members present, and there could have been other crew persons present who were not casualties and thus not mentioned by Pike.

One warrior with sword & spear, etc. vs at least eleven Starfleet crew embers with laser pistols?

Possibly Pike's crew didn't carry any weapons, which could be one decision that Pike blames himself for.

Possibly Pike was separated from the others in the landing party and attacked by one warrior, while the others were attacked by several warriors. That would make the Talosian illusion more similar to the actual events.

Or maybe the Kaylar or Kalar attacked at least eleven starfleet members, killing three and wounding seven.

In the illusion in "Menagerie Part 2":

VINA: The Kaylar!
PIKE: It's starting just as it happened two weeks ago, except for you.

This implies that Pike was alone when attacked by the Kalar, except possibly for a native Rigelian woman. So possibly the other Starfleet people were ambushed someplace out of sight and sound by other Kalars, or maybe this Kalar had already attacked and driven off the other other Starfleet persons and was now about to finish the job with Pike.

VINA: Quick. If you attack while it's not looking.
PIKE: But it's only a dream.
VINA: You have to kill him as you did here before.

This suggests that Pike killed the Kalar in a courtyard of a deserted fortress similarly to the way he killed him in the illusion, though possibly using different weapons than in the illusion.

But it seems uncertain whether there were other crew members present in the fortress courtyard when Pike fought the Kalar, including wounded Spock and Tyler and five other, probably incapacitated, crew members, plus three other crew members lying dead on the floor. That is one possibility. The other possibilitys that Pike was alone in the courtyard, except possibly for a native woman, and released the other surviving crew members from a dungeon or something after killing the Kalar.

So it is interesting to speculate about what hppened on Rigel VII.

As I remember, James Blish's novelization described the political situation briefly, with advanced travelers from other Rigelian planets trying to take over the less advanced Rigel VII, but I don't know if that was in any of the scripts that Blish used.

 

[Christopher]

One warrior with sword & spear, etc. vs at least eleven Starfleet crew embers with laser pistols?

I've always assumed that Pike's battle with the Kalar in that fortress was just one of multiple engagements going on simultaneously. He refers to "the swords and the armor," plural, then describes getting trapped in the fortress, implying that he was cut off from the others involved in the fight.

In the version in Marvel's Early Voyages issue 3, Pike is lured away to the fortress by a "Kaylar" spy (the woman whose place Vina takes in the illusion) as a diversion while the Kaylar attack the rest of his landing party elsewhere.

As I remember, James Blish's novelization described the political situation briefly, with advanced travelers from other Rigelian planets trying to take over the less advanced Rigel VII, but I don't know if that was in any of the scripts that Blish used.

You must be remembering something else. Blish says that Pike's forces went in to break "the Kalar's hold over their serfs," and that the scene in the illusion was the aftermath after they had "breached and reduced the fortress." So the attacker in the illusion was one last straggler taking revenge. Blish acknowledges the General Order One concerns in such an act, though he says that was "solved" by the Kalar from Rigel X swarming in to support "their degenerate colony" (but he doesn't actually explain how that solves anything).

 

[FormerLurker]

So three crew pwersons were killed, seven were wounded, Pike apparently survived without a noticeable wound, making a total of eleven crew members present, and there could have been other crew persons present who were not casualties and thus not mentioned by Pike.

One warrior with sword & spear, etc. vs at least eleven Starfleet crew embers with laser pistols?

Possibly Pike's crew didn't carry any weapons, which could be one decision that Pike blames himself for.

Possibly Pike was separated from the others in the landing party and attacked by one warrior, while the others were attacked by several warriors. That would make the Talosian illusion more similar to the actual events.

Or maybe the Kaylar or Kalar attacked at least eleven starfleet members, killing three and wounding seven.

In the illusion in "Menagerie Part 2":



This implies that Pike was alone when attacked by the Kalar, except possibly for a native Rigelian woman. So possibly the other Starfleet people were ambushed someplace out of sight and sound by other Kalars, or maybe this Kalar had already attacked and driven off the other other Starfleet persons and was now about to finish the job with Pike.



This suggests that Pike killed the Kalar in a courtyard of a deserted fortress similarly to the way he killed him in the illusion, though possibly using different weapons than in the illusion.

But it seems uncertain whether there were other crew members present in the fortress courtyard when Pike fought the Kalar, including wounded Spock and Tyler and five other, probably incapacitated, crew members, plus three other crew members lying dead on the floor. That is one possibility. The other possibilitys that Pike was alone in the courtyard, except possibly for a native woman, and released the other surviving crew members from a dungeon or something after killing the Kalar.

So it is interesting to speculate about what hppened on Rigel VII.

As I remember, James Blish's novelization described the political situation briefly, with advanced travelers from other Rigelian planets trying to take over the less advanced Rigel VII, but I don't know if that was in any of the scripts that Blish used.

There is an oddity in the script you quote. Not reproduced in my quote of you, it has Pike saying "My only yeoman - ". I have always heard this as "My own yeoman - " as though there are others present.

 

[Khan Jr]

I also hear the line as "My own yeoman". Yet I think Pike is emphasizing the yeoman's death, not because other yeomen were necessarily present, but because it was someone assigned directly to him. Probably makes the whole thing feel like even more of a failing on his part.

 

[Christopher]

Yes, I've always heard it as "My own yeoman," as in the captain's personal assistant, as Rand was for Kirk (although presumably the dead yeoman was male, given Pike's reaction to being assigned a female replacement).

 

[MAGolding]

Yes, I've always heard it as "My own yeoman," as in the captain's personal assistant, as Rand was for Kirk (although presumably the dead yeoman was male, given Pike's reaction to being assigned a female replacement).

Yes, I always assumed it was "my own yeoman", not "my only yeoman", and only noticed the spelling in Star Trek transcripts about a year or so ago. A good recording of that line, and/or the line from the shooting script, would be useful.

 

[Tenacity]

Or maybe the Kaylar or Kalar attacked at least eleven starfleet members, killing three and wounding seven.

And Starfleet killed how many with their "laser pistols?"

You must be remembering something else. Blish says that Pike's forces went in to break "the Kalar's hold over their serfs,"

What do you think Christopher, no prime directive? Certainly not Picard's version.

TLDR, I wonder about that bandages. Kirk had one at the end of WNMHGB, shouldn't 23rd century medicine be far beyond physical bandages?

Especially after two weeks?

 

[Timo]

Well, Pike got ambushed by that warrior two weeks prior to the adventure. But he's not the one with the bandages. Perhaps his men were injured in the daring rescue that in fact took place only a day or two before the Talos SOS?

This would then probably move "Rigel VII" closer to Earth, Talos and Vega, and make their relative positions much more relevant than in the model where the fight took place on a planet of the distant Beta Orionis. And we now know there's a Rigel close to Earth in the Trek universe...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[MAGolding]

....One warrior with sword & spear, etc. vs at least eleven Starfleet crew embers with laser pistols?....
Possibly Pike's crew didn't carry any weapons, which could be one decision that Pike blames himself for.....
Or maybe the Kaylar or Kalar attacked at least eleven starfleet members, killing three and wounding seven....

.

And Starfleet killed how many with their "laser pistols?"...

In my sentence "Or maybe the Kaylar or Kalar attacked at least eleven starfleet members, killing three and wounding seven" I was using Kalar in the singular, not the hypothetical plural, to refer to the the one warrior seen attacking Pike in the recreation. If that one Kalar attacking Pike also attacked the others and killed three and wounded seven, the maximum number they could have killed with their laser pistols is one, the single one who attacked them.

My point was that if the one Kalar warrior attacked eleven starfleet crew members, and they were armed with laser pistols, they should have been able to kill the Kalar easily, causualties.

So I wondered whether one Kalar warrior did attack at least eleven starfleet officers at once, or wehther Pike was attacked separately by one Kalar warrior and other starfleet members ins some other place were attacked by other Kalar warriors.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

There is an oddity in the script you quote. Not reproduced in my quote of you, it has Pike saying "My only yeoman - ". I have always heard this as "My own yeoman - " as though there are others present.

I also hear the line as "My own yeoman". Yet I think Pike is emphasizing the yeoman's death, not because other yeomen were necessarily present, but because it was someone assigned directly to him. Probably makes the whole thing feel like even more of a failing on his part.

Yes, I've always heard it as "My own yeoman," as in the captain's personal assistant, as Rand was for Kirk (although presumably the dead yeoman was male, given Pike's reaction to being assigned a female replacement).

Yes, I always assumed it was "my own yeoman", not "my only yeoman", and only noticed the spelling in Star Trek transcripts about a year or so ago. A good recording of that line, and/or the line from the shooting script, would be useful.

It's definitely "my own yeoman..."

Not from the shooting script itself, but a preceding draft (with Captain Winter in place of Pike) revised 20 November 1964 (found here):

Also, from the DVD subtitles:

Chrissie generally does her transcripts on the fly by ear, and while her efforts surely approach the superhuman, human error inevitably creeps in. (She is quite welcoming of corrections, though, and I've sent this one her way.) When feasible, I advise checking them against the episodes themselves before quoting. (Of course, the same goes for subtitles and scripts, naturally.)

-MMoM

 

[Maurice]

And Starfleet killed how many with their "laser pistols?"What do you think Christopher, no prime directive? Certainly not Picard's version.

Sorry to butt in, but I can't recall seeing any prime directive analog mentioned in any 1st pilot materials, so that'd be pure speculation. But a non interference regulation was definitely in the 2nd pilot drafts of "The Omega Glory" under a different name, so we know the idea was in play before the series pickup.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Hold on, there's an actual place called Benecia?

Also a Tiburon.

 

[Christopher]

Sorry to butt in, but I can't recall seeing any prime directive analog mentioned in any 1st pilot materials, so that'd be pure speculation. But a non interference regulation was definitely in the 2nd pilot drafts of "The Omega Glory" under a different name, so we know the idea was in play before the series pickup.

Yeah, the concept was fairly common in prose science fiction before Star Trek -- at least as far back as Olaf Stapledon's Star Maker in 1937 and several Isaac Asimov stories from the '40s. Various types of non-interference policies or restrictions on sharing technology feature in works like L. Sprague de Camp's Viagens Interplanetarias series starting in the '40s, James White's Sector General starting in 1957, Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover universe starting in 1958, the Strugatsky Brothers' Noon Universe starting in 1962, and a number of things contemporaneous with Star Trek including Ursula LeGuin's Hainish Cycle, Samuel R. Delany's Empire Star, Lloyd Biggle Jr.'s Interplanetary Relations series (in which it was "Interfere secretly in alien cultures so they think it was their own idea to change"), and others. So it's no surprise that Roddenberry would've been aware of the notion when he first developed the show.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AlienNonInterferenceClause

Also a Tiburon.

Well, of course -- that's just Spanish for "shark."

 

[1001001]

Also a Tiburon.

Man, I got super drunk in Tiburon once.

That probably doesn't add much to the conversation, but there it is.

 

[Maurice]

Yeah, the concept was fairly common in prose science fiction before Star Trek -- at least as far back as Olaf Stapledon's Star Maker in 1937 and several Isaac Asimov stories from the '40s. Various types of non-interference policies or restrictions on sharing technology feature in works like L. Sprague de Camp's Viagens Interplanetarias series starting in the '40s, James White's Sector General starting in 1957, Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover universe starting in 1958, the Strugatsky Brothers' Noon Universe starting in 1962, and a number of things contemporaneous with Star Trek including Ursula LeGuin's Hainish Cycle, Samuel R. Delany's Empire Star, Lloyd Biggle Jr.'s Interplanetary Relations series (in which it was "Interfere secretly in alien cultures so they think it was their own idea to change"), and others. So it's no surprise that Roddenberry would've been aware of the notion when he first developed the show.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AlienNonInterferenceClause

/infodump

Anyhoo, my point was where the concept turned up on Star Trek. A lot of people think Coon invented the Prime Directive for Trek, but the production paperwork makes clear it was GR who inserted it into the show format as early as the 2nd pilot stage.

 

[Maurice]

Man, I got super drunk in Tiburon once.

That probably doesn't add much to the conversation, but there it is.

Was it at Guaymas? I used to go there.

 

[Christopher]

Anyhoo, my point was where the concept turned up on Star Trek. A lot of people think Coon invented the Prime Directive for Trek, but the production paperwork makes clear it was GR who inserted it into the show format as early as the 2nd pilot stage.

Which, as I said, is not surprising because it was a common concept in prose SF already -- like almost everything else in Star Trek. It didn't invent so much as popularize.

 

[1001001]

Was it at Guaymas? I used to go there.

Tiburon Tommie's, long since gone, sadly.

https://www.critiki.com/location/tiburon-tommies-tiburon-578/

 

[Maurice]

Tiburon Tommie's, long since gone, sadly.

https://www.critiki.com/location/tiburon-tommies-tiburon-578/

Oh yeah. I think I had a drink there at least once.