Eugenics Wars.

[Christopher]

Which would allow Spock to return to the Prime timeline should he choose to.

In theory, but who says he has the means? His journey to the new timeline was not controlled; it was a consequence of the red matter, which a) was destroyed, b) is beyond the technology of the era he now inhabits, and c) would be too dangerous and unpredictable to take a chance on using anyway. And there is no known technology for the controlled transfer between timelines; the only one we've seen was the transporter gizmo used to cross to and from the Mirror Universe in DS9, and that was apparently only capable of transferring between those two timelines, as well as (again) not having been invented yet. (And yes, Spock Prime has considerable scientific expertise of his own, but there's only so much he could do without the necessary technological infrastructure. The Jellyfish ship was destroyed, so no 24th-century tech remains in the new timeline.)

That only leaves technology for travelling forward or backward in time, such as the slingshot effect or the Guardian of Forever. But would that avail him? That brings us to the next quote:

That raises an interesting question -- if someone were to travel back to just before the March 2233 split and live forward from that point on, which branch of the timeline would they experience? Or would they be split in two and exist in both?

If they didn't change anything, then yes, they would diverge along with everything else. Otherwise, they would create a third timeline that would branch off in a separate direction due to their presence, just as Nero caused a branching on his arrival. Since, objectively speaking, that timeline would actually have diverged before Nero's arrival, it would presumably be Nero-free and could be expected to develop similarly to the Prime timeline, except for whatever changes might result from one's own anachronistic presence.

But there's a more critical issue here that has nothing to do with temporal physics. Spock Prime wouldn't choose to return to his own history even if he could. He considers himself responsible for the destruction of Vulcan in the new timeline, because he failed to save Romulus and thus set off Nero. So he's dedicated himself to aiding the surviving Vulcan population, ensuring that the species recovers. He wouldn't abandon that responsibility merely in order to relocate himself to a more agreeable reality. That would be completely out of character for Spock.

 

[kkozoriz1]

If Spock feels responsible for the destruction of Romulus then why wouldn't he simply surrender to Nero. If he feels he's guilty.....

Why would Spock Prime be the one looking for a new planet for the Vulcans? Isn't there anyone in the Federation that could do such a thing?

 

[David cgc]

If Spock feels responsible for the destruction of Romulus then why wouldn't he simply surrender to Nero. If he feels he's guilty.....

He did.

 

[Christopher]

Why would Spock Prime be the one looking for a new planet for the Vulcans? Isn't there anyone in the Federation that could do such a thing?

Of course there is, but he chooses to do it himself because he considers himself responsible for their well-being. I mean, come on, is that a remotely reasonable question to ask? These are Spock's own people, and they're in desperate need. Of course he'd do everything in his power to help them! Why the hell would you imagine he'd do anything less?

 

[JD]

So does that mean all of the nastiness over there was pretty much all one war?

I'm honestly not sure what you mean by "all the nastiness over there." Africa is a continent with 54 separate countries, after all, and there have been any number of armed conflicts within and between those countries since the end of the colonial era.

But specifically, the Second Congo War occurred in the Democratic Republic of the Congo (formerly known as Ziaire) in central Africa, and lasted for five years. It was the largest war in African history and involved eight different countries.

The big one that came to my mind was the Rwandan Genocide, I just couldn't what it was called or where it happened.
EDIT: I just looked at you link and I see it wasn't. Although, it look like it did effect most of the countries Eugene Cussons operates in.

 

[kkozoriz1]

Why would Spock Prime be the one looking for a new planet for the Vulcans? Isn't there anyone in the Federation that could do such a thing?

Of course there is, but he chooses to do it himself because he considers himself responsible for their well-being. I mean, come on, is that a remotely reasonable question to ask? These are Spock's own people, and they're in desperate need. Of course he'd do everything in his power to help them! Why the hell would you imagine he'd do anything less?

The point being that he's a being from an alternate universe who simply shows up and manages to secure a planet for the 10,000 survivors of one of the Federation's founding races? It's really that easy to get a planet? And apparently nobody else did anything about it? This being a mere number of days after the destruction of Vulcan. Wouldn't someone at least check out his I.D.? You'd think that there'd be some questions asked.

I'm not denying that Spock would do what he could. I'm questioning how quickly he could do this since he's from a different reality, from a different time and he's involved in the apperance of Nero and the destruction of Vulcan.

 

[Sci]

Why would Spock Prime be the one looking for a new planet for the Vulcans? Isn't there anyone in the Federation that could do such a thing?

Of course there is, but he chooses to do it himself because he considers himself responsible for their well-being. I mean, come on, is that a remotely reasonable question to ask? These are Spock's own people, and they're in desperate need. Of course he'd do everything in his power to help them! Why the hell would you imagine he'd do anything less?

The point being that he's a being from an alternate universe who simply shows up and manages to secure a planet for the 10,000 survivors of one of the Federation's founding races? It's really that easy to get a planet? And apparently nobody else did anything about it?

There is absolutely nothing in the film that in any way implies that Spock is alone in his search for a New Vulcan. It merely establishes that he is part of the effort.

This being a mere number of days after the destruction of Vulcan.

It's not entirely clear how long after the main events of the film that scene takes place, actually.

Wouldn't someone at least check out his I.D.? You'd think that there'd be some questions asked.

What makes you think they didn't check his ID? There's no reason to think Spock would be hiding anything from the government.

 

[kkozoriz1]

Of course there is, but he chooses to do it himself because he considers himself responsible for their well-being. I mean, come on, is that a remotely reasonable question to ask? These are Spock's own people, and they're in desperate need. Of course he'd do everything in his power to help them! Why the hell would you imagine he'd do anything less?

The point being that he's a being from an alternate universe who simply shows up and manages to secure a planet for the 10,000 survivors of one of the Federation's founding races? It's really that easy to get a planet? And apparently nobody else did anything about it?

There is absolutely nothing in the film that in any way implies that Spock is alone in his search for a New Vulcan. It merely establishes that he is part of the effort.

This being a mere number of days after the destruction of Vulcan.

It's not entirely clear how long after the main events of the film that scene takes place, actually.

Wouldn't someone at least check out his I.D.? You'd think that there'd be some questions asked.

What makes you think they didn't check his ID? There's no reason to think Spock would be hiding anything from the government.

"I've already located a suitable planet on which to establish a Vulcan colony."

No we've. Not A planet has been located. I've located a planet.

As to the amount of time, you'll notice that Kirk's facial scrapes are still there. Surely, not much more than a week.

So we have a being from an alternate reality and from the future, that was directly involved with the destruction of Vulcan and the attack on Earth, having brought into the past the ultimate weapon of mass destruction, Red Matter. (Compare the destructive effects of equal amounts of red matter and anti-matter. No contest). In the space of a week he's located a planet for the universes' 10,000 surviving Vulcans. It doesn't sound like he had much time for debriefing.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Yet another thread is hijacked so kkozoriz1 can whine about STXI.

 

[EJA]

Regarding the discussion about the ramifications of time travel and divergent/alternate timelines earlier, it makes me think of something I read in one of the Shatnerverse novels to do with the Mirror Universe. The idea in the book was that the MU diverged from the prime reality during the events of First Contact, due in part to the presense of the Enterprise-E crew, who in the MU timeline had places named after them (A character referred to a Lake Riker, for example). So even though the timeline diverged drastically, Picard and co. still existed in 2063. Can anyone back me up on this?

 

[David cgc]

Yep. In one of the Shatnerverse MU books, it was said that the Mirror Universe turned on a coin toss by Cochrane the day after First Contact about whether he'd warn the Vulcans about the Borg or let history take it's course. The Mirror Universe grew out of the former which does indeed support the assertion that people visiting from the future is no guarantee that time will develop into that future.

Along, of course, with Rasmussen, and Ambassador Alexander, and that thing with the two O'Brians, and Admiral Janeway, and so on, and so forth, we already knew that.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ But as we've now seen from IAMD, the actual point of divergence - if there ever was one - was much, much earlier.

 

[EJA]

I've noticed that the framing story of To Reign in Hell occurs between ST IV and ST V. I just wondered, does anyone know just how much time passes between the two films? I don't think it could've been more than a few weeks, at the most.

 

[Timo]

Well, Kirk does tell Scotty "You told me you could have the ship operational in two weeks; I gave you three"...

But nothing forces the three-week countdown to start from the end credits of ST4. It probably starts right after our heroes find out that the Enterprise-A is a lemon, and that might well happen during the shakedown flight in ST4 end credits, but there are other possibilities.

FWIW, ST5 has stardate 8454 while ST4 has SD 8390. Fifty stardates would be a good approximation for three weeks in the TNG style of stardate-keeping, and in fact also for TOS (where stardates are probably a more reliable method of timekeeping than seasons, considering that there are three years between "Errand of Mercy" and "Day of the Dove" in dialogue, and 3,000 stardate units between the end of the first season and the middle of the third, but barely two seasons between the episodes). Granted that stardates elsewhere in the TOS movies are pretty contradictory, but the ST3/ST4/ST5 grouping works just fine if we assume there are 1000 SDs per year. Thus I'd happily argue that it's just a tad under three weeks between ST4:TVH and ST5:TFF.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[F. King Daniel]

I've noticed that the framing story of To Reign in Hell occurs between ST IV and ST V. I just wondered, does anyone know just how much time passes between the two films? I don't think it could've been more than a few weeks, at the most.

IIRC, DC crammed in about a year's worth of comics - but they did the same between STII and STIII (in which Spock even got his own command!) as well.

but the ST3/ST4/ST5 grouping works just fine if we assume there are 1000 SDs per year.

I don't think it's ever a good idea to rely on stardates. Except maybe the STXI ones which are about as straightforward as can be.

 

[Timo]

I know - but the funny thing is, TOS really works better with stardates than with any other timekeeping method! Stardate order sorts out all sorts of continuity problems, and stardate counting of time intervals helps out when season-based methods fail...

And the interval between ST4 and ST5 is another fine match, those 50 SD units translating nicely to 18 days or three working weeks. Coincindence, perhaps, but the TOS era is full of those. (That is, if we don't look too closely at TAS...)

Regarding the time interval between those two movies, have there been any short stories on that? The Dillard novelization of ST5 doesn't specify the interval any better than the movie itself, or mention any worthwhile events in it...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Christopher]

I've noticed that the framing story of To Reign in Hell occurs between ST IV and ST V. I just wondered, does anyone know just how much time passes between the two films? I don't think it could've been more than a few weeks, at the most.

According to Harve Bennett, there was a 6-month shakedown period between the films.

 

[EJA]

I've noticed that the framing story of To Reign in Hell occurs between ST IV and ST V. I just wondered, does anyone know just how much time passes between the two films? I don't think it could've been more than a few weeks, at the most.

According to Harve Bennett, there was a 6-month shakedown period between the films.

Well TWOK took place in March 2285, James Kirk's birthday; I imagine TSFS begins around a week later, certainly not much more. After that, the Enterprise crew spend 3 months on Vulcan before setting off for Earth, placing TVH around late June-early July 2285. If Bennett's estimate of 6 months between TVH and TFF is accurate, then TFF occurs around late December-early January 2286....problem with this is, it appeared to be summer on Earth at the beginning of TFF. So I reckon the interval between TVH and TFF is about 1 month, with the Kirk portions of To Reign in Hell occuring in the first week of said month.

 

[DimesDan]

I've noticed that the framing story of To Reign in Hell occurs between ST IV and ST V. I just wondered, does anyone know just how much time passes between the two films? I don't think it could've been more than a few weeks, at the most.

According to Harve Bennett, there was a 6-month shakedown period between the films.

Well TWOK took place in March 2285, James Kirk's birthday; I imagine TSFS begins around a week later, certainly not much more. After that, the Enterprise crew spend 3 months on Vulcan before setting off for Earth, placing TVH around late June-early July 2285. If Bennett's estimate of 6 months between TVH and TFF is accurate, then TFF occurs around late December-early January 2286....problem with this is, it appeared to be summer on Earth at the beginning of TFF. So I reckon the interval between TVH and TFF is about 1 month, with the Kirk portions of To Reign in Hell occuring in the first week of said month.

Not everywhere has the same season at the same time, while we may be in the throws of Autumn/Winter here in Blighty, down under in Australia it's the end of Spring and fast approaching Summer.

 

[Christopher]

Well TWOK took place in March 2285, James Kirk's birthday;

Conjecturally, yes. March 22 is generally accepted as Kirk's birthdate (because it's Shatner's), and it's what I go with in my own chronology, but it's not strictly canonical. Heck, if you take the new movie's stardate conventions as intended, Abramsverse Kirk was born on January 4, 2233 ("Stardate 2233.04"), and he was no more than a week or so premature (since Word of God is that the Kelvin was on its way back to Earth at the time). Personally I don't take the film's stardates as intended, but I'm just saying it's not an absolutely firm fact when Kirk's birthday falls, and if you wanted to, you could choose a different date.

I imagine TSFS begins around a week later, certainly not much more.

I make it more like a month. Keep in mind that the ship was badly damaged and could've been limping home at low warp. Heck, if you take the visual effects literally, the Enterprise had substantially more battle damage in TSFS than it had at the end of TWOK, suggesting that maybe it ran into another battle on the way home.

Also there's the fact that Saavik is in a cadet red turtleneck in TWOK and a command white turtleneck in TSFS, suggesting she had time to graduate from the Academy in the interim. Though how she got home separately from the Enterprise is an open question in that case.

After that, the Enterprise crew spend 3 months on Vulcan before setting off for Earth, placing TVH around late June-early July 2285.

Placing its beginning around there. We don't know how much time elapsed between the climax of the film and the trial scene. It could've taken weeks or months to recover from the damage to Earth and make the legal preparations for the trial. And it stands to reason that there would've had to be a significant enough interval of time to prepare the new Enterprise; it doesn't make sense that they just happened to have one lying around. So there's a lot of flexibility to add time here.

If Bennett's estimate of 6 months between TVH and TFF is accurate, then TFF occurs around late December-early January 2286....problem with this is, it appeared to be summer on Earth at the beginning of TFF.

You mean summer in the Northern Hemisphere of Earth, of course. But I have to disagree. In the Yosemite scenes, Kirk, Spock, and McCoy were all dressed in fairly heavy gear. Kirk and Spock were in moderately thick jackets with long sleeves and high collars, and McCoy was wearing a fleece-lined jacket. In the campfire scene, McCoy and Spock are dressed the same, and Kirk is now wearing three layers, a long-sleeved undershirt, a flannel shirt, and a sleeveless jacket. Meanwhile, at Mt. Rushmore, Sulu and Chekov were both in long-sleeved, medium-thickness jackets.

So that suggests something more like early spring, with cool temperatures. Which can easily be made consistent with a 6-month shakedown cruise given the flexibility in the earlier films' dates.