Eugenics Wars.

[David cgc]

When McCoy went back in time and altered history in "City on the Edge of Forever", the timeline he came from was erased.

...

When the Borg went back in time in First Contact, the Ent-E actually saw their timeline being erased. The "doubling effect" never occured; it was always a single quantum reality that changed internally, with no "branching."

If that was the case, then how were the landing party and and Enterprise-E still in existence? They were ontological orphans, with no history creating them. Not unlike the Enterprise-E at First Contact, or the crew in 1986 would've been from the perspective of the Post-Nero Timeline. But that's beside my point. My point is that whatever arbitrary device insulated them from the changes in the timeline could just as easily be argued to have sidled them over into the new universe created by the timetraveller they were so close to.

 

[SicOne]

Anyone who wants further explanation can read DTI: Watching the Clock when it comes out.

Nice shamless plug!

 

[EJA]

When McCoy went back in time and altered history in "City on the Edge of Forever", the timeline he came from was erased.

...

When the Borg went back in time in First Contact, the Ent-E actually saw their timeline being erased. The "doubling effect" never occured; it was always a single quantum reality that changed internally, with no "branching."

If that was the case, then how were the landing party and and Enterprise-E still in existence? They were ontological orphans, with no history creating them.

I think the general notion is that the Enterprise landing party were somehow shielded from the changes in the timeline by being on the Guardian's planet. The Ent-E would've been erased if they hadn't followed the Borg into the time corridor and been preserved via interaction with its properties. That's always been the way I've understood it anyway.

 

[Timo]

So at least Kirk's "City on the Edge" adventure and Picard's ST:FC mission would happen just as they always did, even if Nero-induced changes the universe around them somehow erased everything else from existence, including Kirk's and Picard's birth!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[EJA]

Has anyone here read "The Rules of War" in Strange New Worlds v.9? It's an interesting little piece of EW fiction chronicling Jonathan Archer's ancestor squaring off against Stavos Keniclius in war-torn Northeast Africa. There's perhaps one error where the author describes the Augment forces as massing on Africa's east coast to cross the Red Sea and invade Saudi Arabia; but the Augments' territory would've already included that region under Khan, right?

 

[Christopher]

All we know is that Khan's territory spread "from Asia through the Middle East." We don't know how much of the Middle East it encompassed, or how long it took him to accumulate his full territory.

 

[Timo]

Plus, some invasions would involve Augments taking Mundie territory, or vice versa. But others would involve Augments grabbing territory from other Augments. Perhaps the ruler of Saudi Arabia lost his or her holdings to Khan among the very last?

We don't know that Khan would have reigned supreme in the end, either. There might have been half a dozen princes of his caliber, many perhaps with greater landmasses or populations under their control. Let's not forget that it does take our heroes some time to work out who Khan Singh is in "Space Seed"; he may be a former celebrity, but not the celebrity.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[EJA]

The narrative states that Keniclius is the commander of the Augment Alliance forces occupying Erritrea (in Northeastern Africa), and that he's second-in-command to Khan. So it seems likely that the Augments that Archer fights here are loyal to Khan. And a character states that additional Augment Alliance forces are coming up from the south to join their fellow soldiers in the battle. The Augments in Erritrea hold the seaports, which is were they're preparing to cross the Red Sea. But why doesn't Khan just send armies across from east of Saudi Arabia? It makes it sound as though all of Khan's forces operate from Africa. The timeline in Voyages of Imagination dates the story to 1994, which would be two years into Khan's reign.

 

[EJA]

Anyone who wants further explanation can read DTI: Watching the Clock when it comes out.

So DTI will be going into detail as to how time travel can suddenly cause a single timestream to diverge in two rather than just change history? That ought to be an interesting read.

 

[Christopher]

Nothing sudden about it. You're just defining the problem too narrowly and on the basis of some false premises. I certainly hope you will approach the book with an open mind.

 

[EJA]

Regarding the whole "30-35 million casualties" thing....just because it's mentioned, doesn't necessarily make it absolutely true. Anti-Augment hardliners could have exaggerated the effects of the Wars, re-writing history to make out they were a lot more devastating than they actually were.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Some of the Defiant's readout screens in ENT's "In a Mirror Darkly" suggest that the 37 million casualties were from WW III (not the Eugenics Wars) and were directly attributable to Colonel Green...

 

[DimesDan]

Some of the Defiant's readout screens in ENT's "In a Mirror Darkly" suggest that the 37 million casualties were from WW III (not the Eugenics Wars) and were directly attributable to Colonel Green...

Can these be easily seen when watching or do you need to freeze frame the picture and have the added bonus of HD?

 

[BillJ]

Travelling back in time and altering established events does not result in a branching of timelines, no matter what the writers of XI say. From the perspective of the time travellers, after they've changed their past, their present ceases to exist; it now never happens. If you want the Prime timeline to still exist after XI, then you have to assume that Nero and Spock Prime didn't just travel back in time, they travelled into an entirely separate quantum reality. Logically, the DY-100 shouldn't exist, as the events in the future which lead to its creation in the past do not occur. It's a matter of cause and effect.

Well, you're clearly not open to considering alternative points of view, so there's no point in trying to persuade you further. All I'm suggesting is that people other than you -- who also read Trek literature and participate in this board -- might be open to seeing things in a different way, and I'm offering them an interpretation that would let them reconcile the existence of the DY-100 in the Abramsverse's history. An interpretation that is grounded in real quantum theory and basic logic, and that isn't as incompatible with prior Trek continuity as you assume. Anyone who wants further explanation can read DTI: Watching the Clock when it comes out.

Love it or hate it, Star Trek 2009 has definitely spurred on some interesting debates regarding time travel and how events from the prime timeline relate to the new one.

It's a shame the four Abramsverse novels were canceled.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Some of the Defiant's readout screens in ENT's "In a Mirror Darkly" suggest that the 37 million casualties were from WW III (not the Eugenics Wars) and were directly attributable to Colonel Green...

Can these be easily seen when watching or do you need to freeze frame the picture and have the added bonus of HD?

It helps if you have freeze frame, yes.

 

[DimesDan]

Some of the Defiant's readout screens in ENT's "In a Mirror Darkly" suggest that the 37 million casualties were from WW III (not the Eugenics Wars) and were directly attributable to Colonel Green...

Can these be easily seen when watching or do you need to freeze frame the picture and have the added bonus of HD?

It helps if you have freeze frame, yes.

So the information you're referring to actually could be a recipe for Haggis for those of us who don't freeze frame and accept that information like that is just filling up a graphic and not meant to matter.

 

[F. King Daniel]

That info from "In a Mirror, Darkly"? It got the year of First Contact wrong, as well as the year that Archer stepped down and the NX-01 was decommisioned. If it got those wrong...

Background graphics are fun easter eggs, though - I loved spotting ships from old FASA manuals in one or two TNG episodes. I'd go frame-by-frame and zoom in whenever Data did his super-fast typing.

 

[Myasishchev]

All we know is that Khan's territory spread "from Asia through the Middle East." We don't know how much of the Middle East it encompassed, or how long it took him to accumulate his full territory.

I really, really prefer just to read that as "the Indian Republic" with its implied leadership in any future Desi customs union. But then I can't suspend disbelief on any Eugenics War that doesn't involve tens of millions of Augments working largely in concert as a social movement. They're not Kryptonians. They're very, very faintly superhuman, and that sort of thing is only dangerous in numbers. A dozen Augments couldn't overthrow the county sheriff's department.

That said, I don't have any "canon" argument against Mr. Cox' series. That's a crazy person's game. Star Trek is a fiction and often does not hang together from episode to episode, or even scene to scene, and on occasion line to line. It is not a documentary about the future.

No, from what I read in the Eugenics Wars books, they are fun-ish, if a little intentionally silly and Silver Agey, but aspects of them seem entirely unintentionally discomforting, by coopting real-world tragedy for pure entertainment purposes.

That said, Moonraker was my favorite Bond movie (shut up, no, I'm serious), so it's got that going for it.

 

[Greg Cox]

No, from what I read in the Eugenics Wars books, they are fun-ish, if a little intentionally silly and Silver Agey, but aspects of them seem entirely unintentionally discomforting, by coopting real-world tragedy for pure entertainment purposes.

That said, Moonraker was my favorite Bond movie (shut up, no, I'm serious), so it's got that going for it.

I admit, I was deliberately going for a 60's spy-fi vibe with parts of the EUGENICS books. In fact, I often had the soundtrack to OUR MAN FLINT playing loudly in the background as I wrote the Gary Seven and Roberta scenes . . . .

 

[Myasishchev]

But hopefully not influenced by Agent For H.A.R.M.

Unless Seven cops a clearly unscripted feel on Roberta in later scenes. In which case, that's the film to emulate.