Eugenics war (world war 3)

[JonnyQuest037]

I would gather the 37 million were those that died from combat while the remaining of the 600 million were fallout, famine, and disease.

Sounds like a perfectly reasonable assumption to me. I'm sure if the weather patterns shifted the wrong way, a lot of people could get caught in the fallout.

Heck, it might be interesting to assume that some long-delayed fallout or some lost weapons from the 1990s Eugenics Wars were what started WWIII the next century! That could explain why the two are reported as both the same conflict & separate conflicts.

 

[Marsden]

Ok, not efficient. you win.

 

[Timo]

Well, the Reich was efficient for the last couple of years, when Speer got to organize everything, and when clear winners finally emerged from the deliberately interfighting intel and logistics organizations. And anybody would be considered efficient in comparison with the Brits who invented the "Nazis were efficient" cliche...

I doubt Gill was under any delusions there. He just wanted to set up a system where he could reign supreme, and knew that introducing Nazi uniforms and the message of hate would be the easiest way to accomplish that. All speculation on Gill's "benign" motivations is just our heroes' hopelessly optimistic reading of the dying man's drug-blurred rantings.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JWPlatt]

No all it says in my fiction I trust one fictional character over another.
You say trust the writer's facts as if there were actual facts involved.

Okay, so Spock's mistake was believing and repeating what the writer who got it wrong told him to say from the script.

 

[hux]

What "efficiency" was that Spock?.

Seriously?

The Nazi regime was ridiculously efficient. The economy grew, the military grew, new buildings and autobahns constructed, unemployment went from seven million to one million, crime fell etc etc (and all after a harsh treaty of Versailles and the Wall Street crash).

Then Hitler turned out to be a psychopath and turned all that efficiency towards rearmament and European conquest (and that's where it went tits up)

Spock doesn't say they're a great bunch of lads, those Nazi's, he simply points out that they created a very organised society (Spock is referring to Nazi Germany of 1933 - 1939, not the war time Nazi's)

Well, the Reich was efficient for the last couple of years, when Speer got to organize everything, and when clear winners finally emerged from the deliberately interfighting intel and logistics organizations. And anybody would be considered efficient in comparison with the Brits who invented the "Nazis were efficient" cliche

What?

 

[JWPlatt]

For some, the emotional and historical results completely obliterate any possibility of acknowledging objective facts. In some ways, it's like the dancer and the dance. But then, people need to understand that limited access highways (such as the autobahn) can exist without fascism.

 

[T'Girl]

... people need to understand that limited access highways (such as the autobahn) can exist without fascism.

Plus construction of the autobahn system was begun under the Weimar Republic, and not the later Nazis regime. Under the Nazis the general German public couldn't afford cars any way.

If the point is that the Nazis "efficiently" brought the German state to near complete destruction (the Nazi "package deal") that would be accurate.

 

[Anwar]

Back in the 60s people were still thinking that the German system was an efficient one and could be used for more beneficial purposes than a War Machine.

Later people realized that the kind of "efficiency" the German system had relied on corruption prejudice and brutality that was inherent to the system and couldn't be expunged.

So "Patterns of Force" was the result of popular theories at the time. Like how Space Seed says the Supermen were due to selective breeding but later TOS says they were genetically engineered.

 

[hux]

... people need to understand that limited access highways (such as the autobahn) can exist without fascism.

Plus construction of the autobahn system was begun under the Weimar Republic, and not the later Nazis regime. Under the Nazis the general German public couldn't afford cars any way.

If the point is that the Nazis "efficiently" brought the German state to near complete destruction (the Nazi "package deal") that would be accurate.

Why are you talking about autobahns as though they are the defining quality of a state? That was just an example of its economic endeavours. I'm not sure why people aren't getting this. Spock is pointing out that a war beaten nation was transformed into an economic powerhouse which successfully addressed most of it's major domestic problems within the space of a decade. That is system of immense efficiency and organisation

It was only when that efficient state turned it's eyes to war, that it embraced disaster (and even that failure was primarily due to the misjudged attack on Russia)

 

[Anwar]

Most of Germany's economic problems were solved (on paper) via racial persecution and brutality. That's not the kind of "efficiency" people think about when they want a better run country.

 

[hux]

Most of Germany's economic problems were solved (on paper) via racial persecution and brutality. That's not the kind of "efficiency" people think about when they want a better run country.

Wait, are you suggesting that the Nazi's were bad?

I could have sworn they were a great bunch of lads. A bit rowdy sure, but essentially fun guys with nice hair

Tyrannical dictatorships often produce a very structured, organised society. Spock is simply referring to that type of efficiency and describes it as a "benign" version (clearly acknowledging the true dark side of the original Nazi regime)

 

[T'Girl]

Spock is pointing out that a war beaten nation was transformed into an economic powerhouse which successfully addressed most of it's major domestic problems within the space of a decade.

By the time the German government transitioned from the Weimar Republic to the Nazis, Germany was no long a "war beaten nation." The Weimar had successful negotiated the worst parts of the Treaty of Versailles away, prior to the rise of the Nazis.

It was only when that efficient state turned it's eyes to war, that it embraced disaster

The Nazi package deal. The Nazis didn't inherit a war beaten nation, but that what their efficient rule resulted in.

 

[hux]

By the time the German government transitioned from the Weimar Republic to the Nazis, Germany was no long a "war beaten nation." The Weimar had successful negotiated the worst parts of the Treaty of Versailles away, prior to the rise of the Nazis

They were still in recovery from the war psychologically due to the harshness of the treaty. The crash of 29 brought things to a head. Between 33 and 39, the Nazi regime demonstrably produced an effective and organised society and did so very quickly.

The Nazi package deal. The Nazis didn't inherit a war beaten nation, but that what their efficient rule resulted in.

I get no sense that Spock is even taking the war years into account here. If we take the war out of the equation, the domestic Nazi regime is certainly capable of being qualified as very efficient. Spock could have referenced pretty much any authoritative dictatorship but the Nazi's are the easiest to access for most people

 

[BeatleJWOL]

The fact that Spock is accepting of the "efficiency" of the Nazis yet quite obviously appalled at how accepting Kirk, McCoy and Scotty were of Khan's "peaceful" reign sort of throws it all out of whack.

At which point we have to return to the writers and question that instead. (or Spock is a moral relativist. Also interesting too that a Jewish actor would not have objected to his character NOT arguing against anything positive about the Nazi regime. Perhaps he did and it was overridden?)

 

[Nerys Myk]

The fact that Spock is accepting of the "efficiency" of the Nazis yet quite obviously appalled at how accepting Kirk, McCoy and Scotty were of Khan's "peaceful" reign sort of throws it all out of whack.

At which point we have to return to the writers and question that instead. (or Spock is a moral relativist. Also interesting too that a Jewish actor would not have objected to his character NOT arguing against anything positive about the Nazi regime. Perhaps he did and it was overridden?)

The episode also includes this exchange between two Jewish actors.

KIRK: Yes, it's a shame yours isn't as attractive as mine. Gestapo, I believe.
SPOCK: Quite correct. You should make a very convincing Nazi.

 

[BeatleJWOL]

Durr, forgot about Shatner. picardfacepalm.jpg

That particular scene appears more played for comedy, though. I dunno, just an observation.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Comedy and Nazis!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[BeatleJWOL]

Hogan's Heroes Train To The Stars

 

[Albertese]

Comedy and Nazis really works because of how Mel Brooks described it. He said (I'm paraphrasing, not quoting) that to present the Nazis as buffoons trivializes them in a way that demeans their ideology and empowers their victims. It makes it so future generations will look back at them and think, "what a bunch of dummies" and will never go down that road again.

I think there has to be a balance, though. I grew up with the impression that the Nazis were essentially just well-dressed warmongers who bumbled there way into being stupidly evil. I wasn't until I read I Cannot Forgive by Rudolf Vrba that I truly came to appreciate just how evil these guys really were. They were systematic and, dare I say, scientific in their approach to ne'er-do-welling. The Holocaust was a carefully planed strategy brewed in the mind of an evil genius (not Hitler, though fully endorsed by him). The German war-effort was largely financed and the morale of the "Arian" troops and citizenry built up by the systematic looting and destruction of (mostly but not exclusively) Jews. And the people were being told that the Jews were being deported, so most didn't know til later about the camps. They had little clue that the new shoes the Furher had provided to Fritz and Elsa's son were formerly those of a now dead Jewish boy. They just figured the Reich came through for them. This was how Germany was sustained through the rough-going war years.

While I can see how the writer's of "Patterns of Force" got it wrong, as the details were not well-known in America even by the sixties, it's difficult to see in-universe how John Gill could have gotten it so wrong. Unless "details from that period of your history are fragmentary" by the 23rd Century. The "efficiency" of the Nazi state was fueled by robbery and murder. It just doesn't work without the immoral brutality of it all, and it can't be sustained because of that brutality.

--Alex

 

[Marsden]

Well, it's hard for us to take the statement without those very specific, and true, details of what they were about, but "a tiny country almost taking over the world" is I think the only thing they were looking at.

I think it's 2 things, one the prexisting costumes of course, but also it's Gill's mistaken belief that he can interfere and do it in such a way as to solve the whole world's problems. Add to that it's an evil thing trying to be bent to good purposes, I think that's why they used the Nazis, which more than anything is safely equal to evil without any more explaining.

So, not really a matter of "efficency" as we mean it, but to stop their wars amoung themselves he gave them a unifiying enemy but it went too far. Either pride or something else, but that's his failing, to believe he can control an evil concept and use it for good, that's the Patern of Force the episode is refering to.

And this has all been an excellent red herring about the Eugenics Wars being Earth's Third World War. Nice one T'Girl.