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Equinox crew??

I think the Doctor was programmed to allow those who would trigger its emergency program, to extend the memory of its database to take into account the new requirements emerged during the varied missions, like new medical techniques, a better knowledge of virus, improve the capacity and effectiveness of its interventions, etc... . But our Doctor, forgetting what "he" was (and will always be, not matter its efforts granted and those coming from the crew!) and why "he" has been created in the first place, seeked to become more than a holoprogram in searching to adopt the same specificities (emotions, curiosity, hobbies, etc) of human beings for whom "he" has yet so little respect, not only in downloading the datas but in adding his comments, improvements (but we saw that in some occasions, its program could be modified by a third party to make the Doctor, a new version of DrJekyll and Mister Hyde. In fact, it became clear that there would never enough security keys brought to its program, because as human being and aliens, the Doctor wasn't infallible and immortal!), overloaded the capacity of its memory once, in downloading anything and everything so that the progam was on the verge to fail and even disappear (= the episode between s1 and 3, where Kes asked to a holoprogram of Dr Lewis Zimmerman to help her friend, which the program threated to disppear, and the good Dr Zimmerman choked then blamed the hologram after to have found out the cause of the problem and the futile nature of the programmed downloaded).

I know that the Doctor was and still is one of the main Voyager's favorites but I still cannot bring myself to being involved - in or even like - this character, sorry! In fact, from s4, his antics eventually but profundly bored me, sorry! :rolleyes:

Ghislaine, I agree with you quite a bit about the Doctor, though I wouldn’t say I don’t like him. Picardo’s characterization could be quite amusing, and the EMH idea was a creative, useful device. However, I didn’t have a lot of patience for the “holograms are people too” episodes, especially when in the later seasons he himself disobeyed orders or betrayed his shipmates and yet barely received a slap on the wrist. It was inexplicable that he was never “fixed” so that he could not do that in the future, or to prevent his ethical subroutines from being altered or removed. In my view, since a computer program is a creation of humans, and dependent on human technology for its existence, then humans have the right and duty to adjust it so that it meets their needs. “The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away.” ;-) Of course, I’ve always found there to be a certain conceit and vanity in humans creating humanistic AI. I also didn’t care for it that they turned the doctor into a virtual superhero, while never fully developing my own favorite human characters. TOS made it abundantly clear that creating AI that can become more powerful than its creators never leads anywhere good—Frankenstein’s Monster by another medium.
 
Yea, that was upsetting when Janeway doesn't punish him. Everytime he went off on one of his crusades.

He made terrible decisions in:
The Killing Game
Renaissance Man
Warhead? (The one where he bring aboard the sentient weapon-I believe that's the title)
Possibly Revulsion?

Either Janeway shows him unusual favoritism, or she secretly fears holograms as I do.
 
You fear holograms, Prax? Ha!
S7's 2-parter "Flesh and Blood" also. And Janeway let their only medical care leave in "Virtuoso". Dumb.
Just fix him!
 
Flesh and Blood was what I meant. I get those mixed up. I don't remember what the doc did in killing game.
 
You fear holograms, Prax? Ha!
S7's 2-parter "Flesh and Blood" also. And Janeway let their only medical care leave in "Virtuoso". Dumb.
Just fix him!
Well, either she treats him like a piece of technology or she treats him like a sentient member of her crew. If she treats him like a sentient member of her crew then he has the right to resign his commission just like any other officer on board would.
 
Yea, that was upsetting when Janeway doesn't punish him. Everytime he went off on one of his crusades.

He made terrible decisions in:
The Killing Game
Renaissance Man
Warhead? (The one where he bring aboard the sentient weapon-I believe that's the title)
Possibly Revulsion?

Either Janeway shows him unusual favoritism, or she secretly fears holograms as I do.
What did he do durring Warhead that was punishable?
 
What did he do durring Warhead that was punishable?
He just went off on one of his tangents without considering the safety of the ship. They bring the warhead on board. The EMH is already in love, and then they deduce? That it is a weapon of mass destruction. They want to disassemble it or leave it on the planet, but the Dr insists they hook it up.

They should've followed their first instincts.

Yes, holograms are super, super dangerous. Or maybe "AI" in general. In that episode where data is on trial, and that cyberneticist wants to take Data apart, and build a bunch of datas. Picard says it would be slavery; that the androids would be servants, but it would be humanity that ends up enslaved. I'm guessing Picard never saw The Matrix, or Terminator.

In TNG, there is Lore, Moriarty, and Data himself goes nuts once or twice. In Voyager there are actual wars going on between holograms and their former masters, like in Body and Soul, and Flesh & Blood.

And what do we see in Author, Author? Statfleet using the EMH mark 1 as slave labor!

If my post is really confusing and hard to read.....and makes no sense, I apologize. I need sleep and can't keep my eyes open.
 
Well, either she treats him like a piece of technology or she treats him like a sentient member of her crew. If she treats him like a sentient member of her crew then he has the right to resign his commission just like any other officer on board would.
I have to point out, Sophie, that the EMH was never a commissioned officer. He was a technological creation, a medical program application of Voyager’s computer core. As I explained above, I find it very problematic for humans to create AI, and especially those that mimic ego, emotions and the like. One among many problems is that it does confuse humans and humanoids who tend to have affection for even inanimate objects. And it can especially confuse humans who may not have a belief in the spiritual component of organic life, versus a self-expanding computer program.

Having said that, one solution for “Virtuoso” might have been to copy the doctor’s program and send one to the planet and keep one on board Voyager, but that must have been too logical for the writers.

Re: the Warhead – Having an unusually strong personal sympathy for another AI and a great deal of naivete, talked Ensign Kim into violating safety protocols and common sense to have an unexploded talking missile beamed on board Voyager. A Missile! What’s wrong with this picture--? He ended up endangering the entire ship, of course. Punishable or not, the doctor demonstrated that when it comes to anything AI, he has very poor judgment. And the humans need to learn to be wary of him with regards to issues involving AI or other holograms.
 
The EMH did receive command subroutines-becoming the ECH.

And yes the doctor did go off the rails sometimes but he saved the ship and did a lot for the crew all the same more than once.
 
If you view the Doctor as Janeway came to (rightly or wrongly and as was later examined in Author Author), but as she would another crew member, but of Officer status, then his misfires had context. And yes there were times when his unique hologram 'nature' was invaluable. It was useful to be able to switch him on and transport him.. think Message in a Bottle, Living Witness, Timeless, Life Line, Workforce. There was also the episode where the Doctor went to that planet and in a matter of minutes lived generations. Can't remember its title. Wish I could now so I could put it in a timeline regards another thread where we're examining his holographic family. Which came first?

He had, he WAS an identity crisis in a hologram. Bit like Seven. With Seven sometimes she identified Borg and other times as an individual. The Doctor was a hologram but he also wanted to be like a human.
 
Well, either she treats him like a piece of technology or she treats him like a sentient member of her crew. If she treats him like a sentient member of her crew then he has the right to resign his commission just like any other officer on board would.

I wouldn't sound defeatist but :

1. As for the issue of the Maquis fate, it is not because Captain Kathryn Janeway thinks of one thing (here, the fact that for her, the Doctor is a sentient member of her crew and should receive the same treatement in term of obligations and rights, than any other member of the crew), that Starfleet Command should feel obliged to share her opinion or just follow her guidelines because it is granted. What the admiralty could tolerate once, when Voyager was lost in DQ and Janeway had to get by on her own, it can choose (and that's the choice which will be made), once Voyager will be back on Earth, to the option of returning to the home organization, more classic and faithful to the Protocol ... and surely safer for them, from a psychological point of view.
But in this said home organization life (and please, forget the beginning of Endgame, which never existed thanks to Adm. Janeway), the Doctor remains an EMH Mark 1 attached to Voyager.
As for his sentiency, people can refuse to recognize it (and this especially as, this state is only possible thanks to a mobile ermitter, which is a technology device of the 29th century and ...a clear breach to the principles of the Prime Directive, which leads the Federation's main policy -> besides, the organization could ordered the destruction of the mobile ermitter, ... and we know that without this device, the Doctor would end up like a bird without wings), considering that his programming has been adapted to give the appearance of being sentient over the past few years, In short, an artificial parameter, and although this EMH Mark 1 is more advanced than any hologram they've ever seen before, he is still a hologram, and holograms are not lifeforms (a tricorder, and a few seconds, and anyone could permanently alter the matrix, like the Equinox crew did, for ex). So if Starfleet Medical has every intention of harming his matrix in decompiling it, under the guise of proven uncontrollability, it could do it, despite Janeway's protests.

2. Even if the Federation finally decided to legally recognize all holograms working for the organization as living beings/life forms and release them, in making them free of duty, on the one hand, I do not think the decision would be taken in the weeks or months following the return of Voyager to Earth but rather, in the following years and the fate of the Doctor could be already sealed and on the other hand, the uniqueness of the Doctor (all the technological enhancements brought to its programs by B'Elena, Harry & himself over the 7 years spent in the DQ), makes that he cannot receive the same treatment of his congeners because of obvious security issue -> neither the Federation or Starfleet (which share ownership of all EMHs, with Dr Zimmerman -> the latter surely created the program in his mind but he carried out his project thanks to the financial and technology means that this military organization made available to him!) would reasonably take the risk to let their unique specimen of enhanced AI run away and offer his services to/be captured by competing and even criminal organizations.

And a last thing, maybe is it a detail but I wonder.... Once on Earth, can the Doctor continue to treat patients? I mean, it was one thing to do it on Voyager, but as an EMH, it doesn't make him officially, a qualified doctor, not according to the Federal Council of Physician Doctors, even if we saw him, fully capable of performing any medical duties that any physician can perform and he has proven that countless times over the past seven years. So, how would the Doctor resign his commission just like any other officer on board would, while he has no formal one. Indeed, IF Janeway or even Tuvok, registered the presence of the Doctor as a Voyager crew member, she had to admit him on a temporary basis, like she has done for Chakotay and his friends... .
 
@Ghislaine HB Braeme, a good analysis. And I had not considered before the potential for the doctor becoming a security breach were he abducted by an enemy.
The EMH did receive command subroutines-becoming the ECH.
And yes the doctor did go off the rails sometimes but he saved the ship and did a lot for the crew all the same more than once.

If you view the Doctor as Janeway came to (rightly or wrongly and as was later examined in Author Author), but as she would another crew member, but of Officer status, then his misfires had context. And yes there were times when his unique hologram 'nature' was invaluable....
@Voth commando1 and also @ Rufuge:
Yes, the doctor was invaluable to the crew and saved the ship. So was/did Tom Paris, Harry Kim, and Seven of Nine, and yet each was royally chewed out by Capt Janeway when they disobeyed orders, each lost rank or privileges for a substantial period of time. Chakotay was relieved and confined to quarters when Janeway decided he was insubordinate in Equinox.

My problem is with people saying that Janeway treats the doctor like any other officer or member of the crew. No, she doesn’t! He has proven himself untrustworthy with the command codes, he has disobeyed the captain’s orders, and he has attacked senior officers, and betrayed/endangered Voyager and its crew (Warhead, Virtuoso, Flesh and Blood, and Renaissance Man) but the doctor is never meaningfully punished nor his program fixed. So why not? Why is it that, as Prax says, “Janeway shows him [the doctor] unusual favoritism”?
 
I think there is some favoritism. For example in Flesh in Blood the Doctor gives the holograms Voyager's security codes, and gets zero punishment. He doesn't even get a lecture, or a stern talking to. Everyone has done things they shouldn't have over the years and got punished or at the very least got "yelled at" for it. Seven got computer access revoked, Tom got demoted, B'Elanna, Harry, and Tuvok got chewed out, Chakotay got releived of duty. The Doctor didn't
 
She even goes out of her way to say she is the one in the wrong. I'm telling ya. They fear the Doctor.

There was that early episode where the guy wouldn't look at the doc or speak directly to him. He was scared. He felt safer talking to Kes.
 
She even goes out of her way to say she is the one in the wrong. I'm telling ya. They fear the Doctor.

There was that early episode where the guy wouldn't look at the doc or speak directly to him. He was scared. He felt safer talking to Kes.
yeah but I'm pretty sure the doctor never melted someone's face with just his thoughts LOL
 
It could be Janeway feels that while he is an "equal" the circumstances that led to him becoming sentient are her and the crew's fault(or their doing at least) and so to punish him for his actions as a sentient being are fundamentally unfair because they led down the path of sentience to start with.
 
Equal?

Pull the other one, it's got bells on.

Okay latent image doesn't make sense unless it's a point of transition between thinking that he is a person and thinking that he is a thing, but seriously before latent image the Docor is a thing, in Janeway's eyes.
 
I'm simply trying to give an idea why Janeway was obviously lighter on the doctor's transgressions than she was on the rest of the crew.

Basically her attitude would be "he is sentient because of our actions and so to punish him forces us to ask should we have allowed him sentience to start with" which is a line of thought Janeway would never follow. So she gives him great leniency.

Latent Image's significance isn't the crew's perceptions and prejudice so much as it is the doctor making the transition from a sophisticated hologram to a self aware AI. That is made very clear at the end of the episode when is he reading "a new life."
 
The doctor was never alive and it was never proved that he was alive.

The crew however anthropomorphized him because they are a bunch of sissies full of wet feelings where their guts should be.

Kes decided he was a real person the first time she met him.

Was he a person in very very early season one, or was she a sentimental fool?

When did she stop being a fool?

How would she know the difference, between a sentient computer program, and the factory settings she assumed wrongly was a sentient computer program?

The Doctor could not trust any one who said that he was sentient, to be right about his sentience, if they awarded him human rights, back when he was still a toaster.
 
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