Equinox and Ransom - were they justified in using aliens as fuel?

[Guy Gardener]

That's only what Janeway believed because excellent liars were lying to her, or even a shitty liar were lying to Kes and Kes passed on her naivety by proxy because kes is that the sort of numb nuts that would sell her cow for magic beans.

8472 turned out to be nice people who traded porn with Voyager.

Saddam said he had WMDs and that he was going to destroy the western world in the mother of all battles... And what sort of moron would take him at his word on that?

You might as well believe that every Federation ship is lined with Corbonite.

 

[R. Star]

If those other aliens were omnicidal maniacs more powerful and more dangerous than the Borg, then yes what Ransom did was far worse.

Yeah, killing space slugs we never see again is so much better than helping the Borg stay off annihilation, kill an untold number of a species the Borg attacked that happens to be ultra powerful, and making that said species an enemy of the Federation all to get home.

But by god, we draw the line at killing a few dozen space slugs to get home soon!

These 'space slugs' as you call them, were originally benign beings that had no interest in our galaxy or posed any threat to the Federation until provoked. Ransom decided to mosey on in and kill some of them for his own selfish reasons, thus dragging himself and eventually Janeway into an unnecessary conflict.

The Borg did the same thing with Species 8472 in their quest for assimilation. By encroaching upon their territory, the Borg sparked the war with Species 8742, and again dragged Voyager into it. But in this case the threat was not local but galactic. Species 8472 had the means and the will to destroy the Federation and severely upset the balance of power in the galaxy. Imagine what would have happened if they had been allowed to continue unhindered...

The whole point I was making with that post is how absurd and hypocritical it was of Janeway to be acting all holier than though to the point of becoming a parody with some of the stuff she had done previously.

As for Species 8472? The Borg started that war. Voyager's involvement started when they just decided they had every right to board and check out one of the 8472 bioships. Entering someone's property without consent is considered a hostile act in most places today. That's when their tricorders started going nuts with the alien coming back to get them. There is no indication one way or another that they were hostile to anyone but the Borg at this point.

An isolated "local" incident from the eyes of 8472. Then the next time they see Voyager the Borg are protecting them. The time after that they invaded fluidic space and destroyed several of their ships. Why shouldn't they consider Voyager and the Federation a hostile force? They were seemingly aiding their enemy from the start, and using Borg technology to kill them.

After that, the next time we see 8472, Voyager(from their point of view) helps the Hirogen kill one of their people. I'm not even gonna touch the absurdity of them having to somehow turn into humans to fight the Federation, but who can blame them for preparing a counterstrike against the Federation? Voyager was acting against them from the get go. Janeway started that conflict in every measure of the word.

How is it okay for Janeway to literally start a war, and kill however many 8472 to get home, but she's all judgemental of Ransom for playing smallball compared to that?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Janeway can beat any Court Martial because the judges judging her are all her buddies.

Which is what she scoffed in Counterpoint.

Can Ransom say the same?

 

[Anwar]

How is it okay for Janeway to literally start a war, and kill however many 8472 to get home, but she's all judgemental of Ransom for playing smallball compared to that?

The 8472 were planning on exterminating all life in our Universe once they were done with the Borg, counter-attacking them was kind of mandatory.

 

[R. Star]

How is it okay for Janeway to literally start a war, and kill however many 8472 to get home, but she's all judgemental of Ransom for playing smallball compared to that?

The 8472 were planning on exterminating all life in our Universe once they were done with the Borg, counter-attacking them was kind of mandatory.

They only said that AFTER Voyager started helping the Borg. Before that they had no reason to continue beyond killing off the Borg.

 

[T'Girl]

Nor was it in contravention of the established judicial norms, for they were not in jurisdiction of a Federation court.

Hmmm, ships of the US Navy are sovereign American territory, even if they are anchored in a foreign harbor, or moored to a foreign pier. When the Enterprise traveled to the Romulan home world in Nemesis, the Enterprise didn't become Romulan territory, it was a "bubble" of the federation. As was Voyager during it entire time in the Delta Quadrant. When the subspace creatures entered Voyager (and the Equinox), they were physically inside the federation.

Lessing in his holding cell, was inside the federation.

Janeway was indeed legally judge, jury and executioner.

Usually called a "Captain's Mast." A very time honored naval tradition.

space slugs

Am I the only one who thinks the "space slugs" killed people, by feeding on them? What was the cause of death anyway?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Well obviously they were either sucking life like a vampire might or they were excreting some sort of radiation as a natural biproduct like we produce carbon dioxide, or like a waste product like our pooh poohs, or a reproductive agent but if they were eating people then it is a possibility that they do require to eat people on a regular basis to sustain themselves, hell humanoids might even be their primary food source.... The religion surrounding these beings might have been invented so that the local humanoids want to be eaten by the subspace people, similar to the mania the Goul'd built into their human slaves. An argument was that ransom started a culling to forestall the farming of a sentient cow species... Which is almost the relationship between the Kazon and the ocampa which janeway forced herself into the middle of.

So, I see your eating on us to death, and I raise you pooping on us to death.

 

[Anwar]

How is it okay for Janeway to literally start a war, and kill however many 8472 to get home, but she's all judgemental of Ransom for playing smallball compared to that?

The 8472 were planning on exterminating all life in our Universe once they were done with the Borg, counter-attacking them was kind of mandatory.

They only said that AFTER Voyager started helping the Borg. Before that they had no reason to continue beyond killing off the Borg.

No, the 8472 Kes "heard" telepathically told her that "The Weak will perish". They were going for all out annihilation.

 

[teya]

Hell if you want to stretch it a lot, deleting that Cardassian medical data from the doctors database is ultimately about taking advantage of unethical means through a tenuous loophole.

Though by that logic they shouldn't be allowed to use most of their weapons becuase at some point those class of weapons have been used to kill people.

If Janeway was consistent, then they would be using no Borg tech (including bringing Neelix back to life or curing Harry's 8472 infestation) because that tech was assimilated at the cost of innocent lives.

The whole Cardassian hologram thing was nonsensical.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The Borg are not malicious or evil.

Borg tech was, is an has been invented to save the universe from despair and tragedy.

They are the good guys.

 

[R. Star]

The 8472 were planning on exterminating all life in our Universe once they were done with the Borg, counter-attacking them was kind of mandatory.

They only said that AFTER Voyager started helping the Borg. Before that they had no reason to continue beyond killing off the Borg.

No, the 8472 Kes "heard" telepathically told her that "The Weak will perish". They were going for all out annihilation.

Yes, after Voyager boarded their ship without cause and was evidentally working with the Borg.

 

[Guy Gardener]

They were much more powerful telepaths than Kes.

Their polite talking probably sounds like manic screaming.

And ignorant.

They didn't know how big our galaxy was or how much life was in it.

Columbus was sailing to India when America got in the way.

Clueless and ignorant, considering the conclusions which they came to about the federations involvement in forestalling their invasion, or that the milky way was so small that Earth was a four hour tour away from the Delta Quadrant.

 

[Lord Manitou]

Killing a bunch of space slugs wasn't worth the death sentence for Ransom and crew(how many more did he require six?) There is more of a problem if any amoral space jockey hears about free fuel to use and then searches to find it.
If Ransom showed any type of compatibility with his rank and background he would have done nothing and let Capt. Janeway have her way. Deliberately putting Voyager in danger and stealing the generator was an act of treason punishable by death.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Did he day trip to Talos Four when I wasn't looking?

Free fuel from space slug that will cripple your ship and eat 9 tenths of your crew?

I think Ransom did wonders for their reputation.

I mean it's 200 years later and I know that only an idiot attacks Russia during the Winter.

Isn't that right Adolf?

Or is the lesson that blokes under 5 feet tall shouldn't attack Mother Russia?

 

[Anwar]

They only said that AFTER Voyager started helping the Borg. Before that they had no reason to continue beyond killing off the Borg.

No, the 8472 Kes "heard" telepathically told her that "The Weak will perish". They were going for all out annihilation.

Yes, after Voyager boarded their ship without cause and was evidentally working with the Borg.

If they could send out messages like that, they could read their minds to know they weren't working with the Borg and just investigating. They fully intended to wipe everything out until VOY showed they could fight back and they changed their minds.

 

[Guy Gardener]

8472 is tough.

But just because they can't be assimilated that made them invincible against the Borg.

The Borg couldn't figure out which doomsday weapon was best, and they weren't going to use a doomsday weapon until they did know which one was best because it's a waste of resources to use the wrong tool for the job. It's just how they are hardwired.

Anyone else on the Borgs level, even the federations level would have wiped the floor with 8472 because they weren't just dicking around.

And really it had taken 8472 over a year to make a dent in the Borg.

It would have taken them millions of years to destroy everyone in the galaxy at that pace if they didn't have a super weapon to take out the galaxy in one shot, which they didn't or it wouldn't have taken a year to put a dent in the Borg.

 

[R. Star]

No, the 8472 Kes "heard" telepathically told her that "The Weak will perish". They were going for all out annihilation.

Yes, after Voyager boarded their ship without cause and was evidentally working with the Borg.

If they could send out messages like that, they could read their minds to know they weren't working with the Borg and just investigating. They fully intended to wipe everything out until VOY showed they could fight back and they changed their minds.

There's no evidence they could read minds. Only that they could speak to another telepath.

 

[Guy Gardener]

They can read minds while kissing.

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

Species Eight-Four-Seven-Oooh.

 

[Lord Manitou]

This is another ep. where everyone ENJOYS A happy ending but instead-
Janeway not only handles this stupid but chases the ship Equinox and eventually shooting them and exploding the ship. She doesn't have enough leverage to revenge Ransom's treason. She then senses her wrongful edict and asks Ransom to transport because there is plenty of time but Ransom doesn't react for some unknown reason.
This brings us to the obvious conclusion that if Ransom loved Janeway he allowed transport. This has worked a thousand times but did it work here?