Equinox and Ransom - were they justified in using aliens as fuel?

[Guy Gardener]

Emanations.

Janeway finds fuel. Super fuel that will knock years off the journey. Unfortunately it's just a bunch of rotting corpses and she decides against processing the cadavers.

The Cloud.

Janeway tries to harvest fuel from a space cloud.

Cloud turns out to be alive, possible a baby if I remember correctly, Voyager gives the cloud baby CPR by expending it's fuel reserves to resuscitate the living nebula.

Voyager limps off with it's tank running on empty.

Neelix calls Kathryn an idiot.

Deathwish.

If Kathy had sanctioned the continued "torture" of Q, then Q would have sent them home.

...

That's three examples of Janeway not being Ransom.

Hell if you want to stretch it a lot, deleting that Cardassian medical data from the doctors database is ultimately about taking advantage of unethical means through a tenuous loophole.

Though by that logic they shouldn't be allowed to use most of their weapons becuase at some point those class of weapons have been used to kill people.

 

[Violet.Phoenix]

Unnecessarily? Of course I wouldn't. If I had to? Well ... it depends on the size of the disaster. I would certainly slaughter a few alien cows if it meant turning a 75 year trip into a 6 month trip.

Don't say that too loud. Janeway will hunt you down and KILL you.

Janeway overreaction in these episodes grinds my gears. The Equinox crew accidentally kill one of these beings studying it, then realize that they can use it to power their propulsion systems. By this point, the beings are pissed and attacking them relentlessly. They're attacking anyway, and unless Ransom and co. are total morons, they're going to defend themselves (which results in more of the beings' deaths and more carcasses [i.e. "fuel"]). Ransom would ALSO happen to be a moron if he didn't use said carcasses to fuel his damn ship to cut a 75 year trip down to six months.

Now, here's the kicker: Not even two years before, good ol' Kathy Janeway realizes that Voyager's preparing to enter Borg space. She then seals a deal with the Borg that causes the annihilation (or Borgification) of Arturis' entire freaking race. All this death and destruction to cross a 10,000 light-year expanse of the Delta Quadrant. And that whole endeavor goes tits up, so Voyager's still stuck at the entrance of Borg space and Arturis' race still gets destroyed. But, I suppose that's okay, because Voyager is the "hero" ship

I'll agree with you about Janeway's overreaction on some fronts in this episode, but the crew of the Equinox was attacked because they were killing these creatures.

And in the case of the Borg: that is a completely different circumstance. Janeway had no idea that there would be those kinds of repercussions, and she had no ability to do so. With the multitude of futures that span out from a single action there was no way for her to know what would happen to Arturis' race. In "Scorpion" Janeway was dealing with an immediate threat posed to both Voyager and the Borg.

Similar arguments have been made about Admiral Janeway's actions in "Endgame" and how those affect later events in the novels. Again, I say circumstance, not knowingly committing a harmful act like Ransom and his crew did.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

I'll agree with you about Janeway's overreaction on some fronts in this episode, but the crew of the Equinox was attacked because they were killing these creatures.

And in the case of the Borg: that is a completely different circumstance. Janeway had no idea that there would be those kinds of repercussions, and she had no ability to do so. With the multitude of futures that span out from a single action there was no way for her to know what would happen to Arturis' race. In "Scorpion" Janeway was dealing with an immediate threat posed to both Voyager and the Borg.

Similar arguments have been made about Admiral Janeway's actions in "Endgame" and how those affect later events in the novels. Again, I say circumstance, not knowingly committing a harmful act like Ransom and his crew did.

Janeway HAD to have known there would be serious repercussions for the whole sector by helping the Borg. They had sensor data of destroyed cubes and worlds and they saw first hand that Species 8472's bioships could blow the shit out of some Borg cubes like nobody's business. Janeway knew that Species 8472 was causing Borg casualties on a massive scale and that the Borg would have to go on an assimilation spree in the instance that the tide turned in their favor, which Voyager did for them. The Borg had to make up for the drones that had been destroyed and the only way to get more drones is to assimilate more worlds. When Janeway agreed to help the Borg, she signed the death warrants for countless worlds. And if she didn't realize this, then she had no business commanding a Federation starship.

 

[Violet.Phoenix]

I'll agree with you about Janeway's overreaction on some fronts in this episode, but the crew of the Equinox was attacked because they were killing these creatures.

And in the case of the Borg: that is a completely different circumstance. Janeway had no idea that there would be those kinds of repercussions, and she had no ability to do so. With the multitude of futures that span out from a single action there was no way for her to know what would happen to Arturis' race. In "Scorpion" Janeway was dealing with an immediate threat posed to both Voyager and the Borg.

Similar arguments have been made about Admiral Janeway's actions in "Endgame" and how those affect later events in the novels. Again, I say circumstance, not knowingly committing a harmful act like Ransom and his crew did.

Janeway HAD to have known there would be serious repercussions for the whole sector by helping the Borg. They had sensor data of destroyed cubes and worlds and they saw first hand that Species 8472's bioships could blow the shit out of some Borg cubes like nobody's business. Janeway knew that Species 8472 was causing Borg casualties on a massive scale and that the Borg would have to go on an assimilation spree in the instance that the tide turned in their favor, which Voyager did for them. The Borg had to make up for the drones that had been destroyed and the only way to get more drones is to assimilate more worlds. When Janeway agreed to help the Borg, she signed the death warrants for countless worlds. And if she didn't realize this, then she had no business commanding a Federation starship.

She would also have been signing those death warrants had she done nothing.

Species 8472 was hell-bent on destruction at the time (no thanks to the Borg). But had she done nothing, even more lives could and probably would have been lost. I hardly think that it is just for a captain to sit around and do nothing in a situation like that.

Now here's a question: If Species 8472 had done away with the Borg, would they have spread out into the rest of the Quadrant? The galaxy?

 

[R. Star]

I'll agree with you about Janeway's overreaction on some fronts in this episode, but the crew of the Equinox was attacked because they were killing these creatures.

And in the case of the Borg: that is a completely different circumstance. Janeway had no idea that there would be those kinds of repercussions, and she had no ability to do so. With the multitude of futures that span out from a single action there was no way for her to know what would happen to Arturis' race. In "Scorpion" Janeway was dealing with an immediate threat posed to both Voyager and the Borg.

Similar arguments have been made about Admiral Janeway's actions in "Endgame" and how those affect later events in the novels. Again, I say circumstance, not knowingly committing a harmful act like Ransom and his crew did.

Janeway HAD to have known there would be serious repercussions for the whole sector by helping the Borg. They had sensor data of destroyed cubes and worlds and they saw first hand that Species 8472's bioships could blow the shit out of some Borg cubes like nobody's business. Janeway knew that Species 8472 was causing Borg casualties on a massive scale and that the Borg would have to go on an assimilation spree in the instance that the tide turned in their favor, which Voyager did for them. The Borg had to make up for the drones that had been destroyed and the only way to get more drones is to assimilate more worlds. When Janeway agreed to help the Borg, she signed the death warrants for countless worlds. And if she didn't realize this, then she had no business commanding a Federation starship.

She would also have been signing those death warrants had she done nothing.

Species 8472 was hell-bent on destruction at the time (no thanks to the Borg). But had she done nothing, even more lives could and probably would have been lost. I hardly think that it is just for a captain to sit around and do nothing in a situation like that.

Now here's a question: If Species 8472 had done away with the Borg, would they have spread out into the rest of the Quadrant? The galaxy?

I tend to doubt it. They struck me as xenophobic isolationalists. The Borg attacked them, they're dead. They only started building those Federation infiltration base things after Voyager allied with the Borg and killed a bunch of them. If there's a threat to them, they eliminate it. Otherwise they're happy to just swim around in their liquid space doing whatever it is they do.

 

[Guy Gardener]

No they wouldn't, but Janeway believed their posturing that they would have, because it was superb posturing.

Ransom puts the peddle to the meddle and runs away.

A couple hours later he's 4 light years away.

but the instant he slows down those beasties are on his ass.

1. They are smart enough to follow Equinox all the way to earth.

2. Equinox was leaving a trail which didn't require intelligence to track.

3. Equinox wasn't running. They needed 68 more of those beasties to get home and if they ran away they wouldn't get jack shit. Equinox was pacing around in circles waiting, preying and hunting, hell they might have been chasing the beasties sometimes.

 

[Mr Pointy Ears]

Likejaneway ransom was willing to do anything to get his crew home,but would she killed the aliens for fuel,that a big question?.

 

[Violet.Phoenix]

Likejaneway ransom was willing to do anything to get his crew home,but would she killed the aliens for fuel,that a big question?.

Considering how blatantly against it she was in the episode I highly doubt it.

 

[Guy Gardener]

She destroyed 25 years worth of universal history.

That's cold.

In Novels, the Borg Invasion of 2381 that was a direct result of the events in End Game culled 63 billion Federation Citizens and %40 of Starfleet which would have weighed heavily on Kathryn's conscience if she wasn't already dead.

Does the future we saw in the beginning of Endgame seem mildly less tragic?

 

[Violet.Phoenix]

She destroyed 25 years worth of universal history.

That's cold.

In Novels, the Borg Invasion of 2381 that was a direct result of the events in End Game culled 63 billion Federation Citizens and %40 of Starfleet which would have weighed heavily on Kathryn's conscience if she wasn't already dead.

Does the future we saw in the beginning of Endgame seem mildly less tragic?

Oh not this again... I swear everyone is so focused on Janeway's actions in Endgame and how it resonates in the novels. YES, she did change history, but she also saved lives of the people on her ship. Now before someone jumps in and says "Well she's responsible for the deaths of 63 billions people," let me say (as I have before) that Janeway had NO WAY of knowing that that would occur. She introducued measures meant to cripple the Borg, not incite them into a more dire conflict. Yes, one would obviously suspect that the Borg would retaliate from an attack such as that.

Does the future in the beginning of Endgame seem less tragic? On the scale of the whole Federation, yes, but we have no idea what happened in those 26 years, something equally as disastrous could have happened within the Federation. But in Endgame it was about the crew, and there were obvious absences from that company, and since we were all so used to seeing them it had an impact on us as viewers.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Now before someone jumps in and says "Well she's responsible for the deaths of 63 billions people," let me say (as I have before) that Janeway had NO WAY of knowing that that would occur.

Which is why the Temporal Displacement Policy exists and the Temporal Prime Directive will exist, to stop righteous arrogant knowitalls from fearlessly setting unpredictable chains of alternate events into motion because where they came from wasn't good enough.

Unless you want to say that Annorax was right and there was nothing amoral about any of his activities?

 

[Violet.Phoenix]

Now before someone jumps in and says "Well she's responsible for the deaths of 63 billions people," let me say (as I have before) that Janeway had NO WAY of knowing that that would occur.

Which is why the Temporal Displacement Policy exists and the Temporal Prime Directive will exist, to stop righteous arrogant knowitalls from fearlessly setting unpredictable chains of alternate events into motion because where they came from wasn't good enough.

Unless you want to say that Annorax was right and there was nothing amoral about any of his activities?

I was more referring to the repercussions of her actions, but I can agree that time travel is a dangerous thing, hence the existence of the laws you've mentioned. Is time travel a good idea in the first place? I honestly can't give an answer because there have been situations in Star Trek where time travel has been beneficial and others where it was harmful, Annorax's actions being one of them.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I can get down with that.

Science is not good or evil, nature neither, its how people use, abuse or ignore it.

Starfleet officers are trained to take account for the consequences of their actions.

It's supposedly 99 percent of how they think.

 

[Violet.Phoenix]

I can get down with that.

Science is not good or evil, nature neither, its how people use, abuse or ignore it.

Starfleet officers are trained to take account for the consequences of their actions.

It's supposedly 99 percent of how they think.

Agreed. Though I feel the need to point out that you can't account for every single possibility that could occur from a single action. Sometimes happenstance simply beats one to the punch.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Truman should have surrendered for the prosecution of war crimes after using atomic weapons on occupied cities.

Is it realistic to assume that even a genius from that era could anticipate what the President started (inherited) by stopping a war that had overtook the planet?

I'm not saying that he should have been convicted side by side with the Nazis, but questions should have been asked, answered and recorded, but certain liberties come with total victory.

(Back to Star Trek)

What about the new movie timeline?

Because of Voyager coming home Nero destroyed the universe and killed a very young George Kirk.

That makes Janeway indirectly yet primarily responsible for the destruction of Vulcan 50 years before Tuvok was born, to wit the death of Tuvok's parents before they got dirty for the first time.

Could Janeway have anticipated this?

Probably not.

Not the details, but the end of many worlds that would have lived if she did nothing is a possibility she would have had to have been criminal to overlook.

Unless she accepted the certainty that these things would probably and she didn't care?

I liked it in Buffy with the Alternate Timeline when the master is about to win and he says to Giles "How do you know? how do you know that the other timeline will be any better than this?" and Giles replies "Anything is better than this."

 

[MacLeod]

Now before someone jumps in and says "Well she's responsible for the deaths of 63 billions people," let me say (as I have before) that Janeway had NO WAY of knowing that that would occur.

Which is why the Temporal Displacement Policy exists and the Temporal Prime Directive will exist, to stop righteous arrogant knowitalls from fearlessly setting unpredictable chains of alternate events into motion because where they came from wasn't good enough.

Unless you want to say that Annorax was right and there was nothing amoral about any of his activities?

Ignoring the books for one moment, Janeway's actions in "Endgame" affected the lives of billions of people.

Prior to her intervention, Voyager took longer to return home, which means the impact on the worlds/people they would have met no longer happened etc..

Janeway's reason for changing the timeline was selfish, to save the lives a small handful of people and the mental stability of Tuvok. She decided that the lives of a few dozen people were more important than the lives of millions/billions of lives that would be affected by her meddling in the timeline.

 

[Guy Gardener]

According to some people who watched Endgame, Janeway didn't just bloody the Borg's nose, cripple or even decimate the Borg, she eliminated them entirely. After Endgame there is no more Borg, according to some people.

Weird huh?

But think of all those 10s of thousands of worlds which were destined for assimilation in the next few years that Janeway saved who are now free to be complete assholes. All the worlds that would have united in terror against the oncoming Borg are now free to kill each other and plunder the others resources without any more looming constant fear of assimilation.

Imagine the 1960s if America had had the bombs to spare to remove Russia from play as well after Japan was told what for?

Any change to history eventually given enough time effects every atom in the universe.

 

[Anwar]

Why does anyone say that Janeway was wrong to do what she did in "Scorpion"? As far as anyone knew then, the 8472 were Omnicidal Maniacs who were going to destroy our Galaxy (and maybe out Universe) if not stopped and the Borg were just the first victims. They were the bigger threat and had to be dealt with.

Arturis' people would've just been killed by the 8472 or the Borg, either way they were dead.

 

[stj]

As to a few side issues, Arturis was wrong; Species 8472 was solidly established as much worse than the Borg, being genocidal maniacs; the Borg don't kill anyone; Tuvix was stealing Tuvok and Neelix' lives (i.e., killing them); all modern Trek is inconsistent about the Borg, who don't kill people in large numbers but assimilate them, sometimes regarding them as worse than dead (thus fair game for murder) other times regarding them as rescuable victims.

As to the subspace people, they were people. Janeway did not overreact. The episode's focus was progressively narrowed so that the audience saw only Chakotay's and Tuvok's reactions to Janeway's supposed obsessive behavior, but did not see anybody's reaction otherwise to what Ransom did. Also, since it was quite well established the subspace people could pursue Equinox even after it used them for fuel, Chakotay's success is establishing contact after letting Lessing cover for Ransom was phony plotting, an absurdity intended to allow Chakotay to escape the consequences of his actions.

Besides, the idea that Lessing wouldn't just lie is so remarkably stupid that on one level, Equinox part II is insanely bad. So insanely bad that we have to wonder what exactly was really going on thematically.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Starfleet Officers don't lie.

But Lessing was also a Goul'd and a Cylon.