Equinox and Ransom - were they justified in using aliens as fuel?

[Disruptor]

Well obviously...

An equinox occurs twice a year (around 20 March and 22 September), when the tilt of the Earth's axis is inclined neither away from nor towards the Sun, the center of the Sun being in the same plane as the Earth's equator. The term equinox can also be used in a broader sense, meaning the date when such a passage happens. The name "equinox" is derived from the Latin aequus (equal) and nox (night), because around the equinox, the night and day have approximately equal length.

...but you already knew that.

Yeah, I know what an equinox is, but the was the ship a reference to a story about tapping into other worldly powers and the horrific consequences of that?

Probably not.

And Turd... Never for a second believe that come 2403 that Kathryn Janeway isn't going to be wracked with regret, and argue with herself until she accepts that if she cuts another two years off the journey that she can save Joe Carey and half a dozen more crewmen and frankly if Admiral Janeway could have gone back in time just one more year, then she could have saved what remained of Equinox's crew and stopped them from harvesting those space beasites...

Ad-meer-reel Janeway went back when she did because Voyager was close to the Borg hub. Going back a year further might change events too much and jeopordize saving her precious Seven and poor Chakotay's feelings.

Still no reason not to save Carey, though.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I get the relationship thing, but Old kathy really shat on those young lovers cornflakes quite well.

The writers were idiots or Admiral Janeway wanted to scuttle that relationship too, because telling a couple that they are destiny's bitch puts a bit a damper on their spontaneity. He can try less because it doesn't matter what he does, that's his wife, and she has to resist harder to prove that she's not a mindless drone and hate him for taking her for granted because this is obviously what he did in the last time line too.

Now the hub on the other hand was always going to be there, Admiral Janeway could have shown up three years early or three years later and still set course for the Hub.

The actual fixed points at work here that she might have had some positive human feelings about were the birth of Naomi and the issuant madness of Tuvok, but then all she needed to do to save Tuvok's mind was Travel back to when the mission was being planned ad add a few compatible Vulcans to the mix who were capable of giving him a healing meld (Which is what the Doctor said on screen was all he needed.), which is all he needed or even meld the tactical officer before he left as a prophylactic measure... Hells, you would think that future Naomi and future Icheb might have mentioned that Tom Paris was Captain of Voyager because Tuvoks quarters were padded, because at the very least Chakotay could have returned to the present with a Vulcan katra in tow that could have done the job, which if you want to talk about compatibility, Young Tuvok would probably be fricking splendid for the gig.

 

[R. Star]

Well obviously...

An equinox occurs twice a year (around 20 March and 22 September), when the tilt of the Earth's axis is inclined neither away from nor towards the Sun, the center of the Sun being in the same plane as the Earth's equator. The term equinox can also be used in a broader sense, meaning the date when such a passage happens. The name "equinox" is derived from the Latin aequus (equal) and nox (night), because around the equinox, the night and day have approximately equal length.

...but you already knew that.

Yeah, I know what an equinox is, but the was the ship a reference to a story about tapping into other worldly powers and the horrific consequences of that?

Probably not.

And Turd... Never for a second believe that come 2403 that Kathryn Janeway isn't going to be wracked with regret, and argue with herself until she accepts that if she cuts another two years off the journey that she can save Joe Carey and half a dozen more crewmen and frankly if Admiral Janeway could have gone back in time just one more year, then she could have saved what remained of Equinox's crew and stopped them from harvesting those space beasites...

Ad-meer-reel Janeway went back when she did because Voyager was close to the Borg hub. Going back a year further might change events too much and jeopordize saving her precious Seven and poor Chakotay's feelings.

Still no reason not to save Carey, though.

What you actually expect her to go back a week earlier to save him? People might start thinking she gave a damn about the little people.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I assume people still eat meat in the Federation? Can't be all replicated junk. So if killing animals to eat meat is okay, why not killing of some extra-dimensional beings to ensure their survival?
There didn't appear to be any real intelligence in those creatures, maybe slightly higher than the average cow or goat that is consumed by humans back on earth. But still an animal of sorts.
Personally I think Janeway was too harsh on them and should have been a bit more understanding considering the Equinox crew was in such dire straits.

I think they should have turned those 30 Days ambassadors into calamari.

 

[Guy Gardener]

When Tom committed a capital crime, and whether Janeway believed that he would face a fair trial or not, she was legally bound by federation law to hand over Tom for immediate extradition... And as soon as Janeway ran, the entire ship and crew needed to be handed over to the legal authorities for harbouring a fugitive, fleeing a crime scene and obstruction... By which point I'd find it quite ridiculous if those buggers didn't declare war on the Federation as a whole, which would mean that Janeway and Tom's crimes would be retroactively exempt for that behaviour until they got home and any argument for peace would probably begin with the Federation handing over Kathryn and Tom for trial.

Ditto for the Federation handing over Ransom to the space beasties when they address the Federation Foreign Office about their grievances before thy resort to exterminating humanity and anyone else standing on planet Earth when compounded impotence forces them to strike to get their point across.

Generations from now, Bovine Superior is going to be suing for reparations from our children.

 

[T'Girl]

2) you think Lessing deserved protection from the relatives of his victims, even at the expense of killing more of the subspace people.

Would Janeway have withheld protection if Ransom hadn't kidnapped Seven and the Doctor, and also stolen the Voyager's generator? It was a interrogation tactic, and had nothing to do with anything Janeway held Lessing responsible for.

If a American citizen committed a murder (or several) in a foreign land and then return to America, family members would not be allowed to simply travel here and kill him in a holding cell.

Yes, Lessing deserved protection.

The only way these propositions are justifiable is if you think the subspace people do not have rights that humans need to respect.

Nope, not the only way. There is also the consideration that the subspace creature are not people to start with, that they are animals that Ransom tortured in order to get his ship home. A tactic he and his crew employed only after having half their fellow crewmember killed within weeks of entering the delta quad and over five years later being on the verge of starvation.

Was it completely right? No, was it the same as killing people? No.

The subspace people were people. That was clearly showed.

Actual it wasn't.

Because if they really believed that the subspace people really were animals

Yes, vicious pack mentality animals.

then Ransom was a fool for not telling Janeway about the process

Ransom and his crew were heavily psychologically damaged by the time of the episode. Ransom was incapable of confiding with Janeway. Some of the members of his crew made tentative move towards tell Voyager's crew what was happening, but they couldn't carry through.

...and Janeway was a fool for not using it too.

And if it was the beginning of episode Night, and Ransom placed the same propulsion option in front of Janeway, given her psychologically state at that time, don't you think her reasoning might have been different? Don't you think she might just have accepted?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Ransom knew what he was doing was wrong and criminal.

His crew knew the same.

Just because they could pretend that it justifiable, I'm pretty sure that they all knew that those justifications were bullshit.

At no point did anyone say that this was a good and morally righteous thing to do.

Excusable perhaps.

In an us or them sort of way.

When everything Starfleet taught them was that, apart from self dense, enforcing law, or times of war, that "them" is supposed to win against "us" every time.

And then there's the inexcusable cover-up.

There would be no need for a coverup if they were innocent.

And if they were just going to continue cleaning up their mess as things went ahead, what matters a few more gallons of blood on their hands?

Nixon didn't cover shit up because he was a saint who did good things he was proud of. He was a pragmatist who did necessary things he could live with.

 

[stj]

....It was a interrogation tactic, and had nothing to do with anything Janeway held Lessing responsible for.....

The interrogation was to acquire information needed to prevent further murders, not to reacquire Seven and the Doctor, much less a generator. One of the many ways the episode glorified Ransom et al. was to forget about showing the reactions of other crew members to these crimes. It was all about Janeway supposedly going overboard for some savages.

If a American citizen committed a murder (or several) in a foreign land and then return to America, family members would not be allowed to simply travel here and kill him in a holding cell.

Since Voyager and Lessing were not in Federation space, but in the subspace people's home territory, this misrepresents the situation. The correct analogy would be to claim that a murderer seized while in hot pursuit of a whole band of murderers deserves protection against the kin (who are by the way the de facto local authorities!) even at the expense of murdering more natives even as he abets the continuing murder of more natives!

This is an extreme position and it is depressing how little discussion of this episode can see that it is. The fact that people have expressed a concern that Janeway instead of the crew of Equinox (and their aides Chakotay and Tuvok) got off too lightly is extremely disillusioning about people.

....There is also the consideration that the subspace creature are not people to start with, that they are animals that Ransom tortured in order to get his ship home....

Animals don't talk. None of the Equinox crew thought so. All you objection tells us is that you believe you have the authority to assign fewer rights to certain kinds of people. As you know, others disagree.

 

[T'Girl]

...and Lessing were not in Federation space

But Lessing was aboard a Starfleet vessel, in the custody of a superior officer, in effect (or actually) under arrest. Prisoners receive protection from "the angry mob." And they certainly aren't thrown to the wolves.

The interrogation was to acquire information needed to prevent further murders, not to reacquire Seven and the Doctor, much less a generator.

Janeway inquiry was to Equinox's tactical status.

murderers deserves protection against the kin (who are by the way the de facto local authorities ...

They (the animals) are the authorities of a realm of space that they can only enter for brief periods of time? These things live in subspace, they're not even part of our universe, how could they possible be the "authorities?"

Animals don't talk.

Actually they do, it just that we can't understand their speech. But when we have taught animals sign language, some level of communication can take place. And just as we can't directly talk with animals here, the crew of the Voyager couldn't directly talk to the animals in this episode. What limited communication that took place was through a interpreter, who engages in direct mental contact.

In the book (non-canon) Star Trek: The New Voyages from 1976, there is a story called The Hunting, where Mr. Spock mind melds with a predatory animal and engages in limited communication with it.

you believe you have the authority

No I don't.

to assign fewer rights to certain kinds of people

Like prisoners?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Directive 101 as seen in the episode Meld is exactly the same as the 5th amendment of the US constitution and miranda. Tuvok reminded Janeway and Suder that he has the right to remain silent to avoid self incrimination.

I bought this up last time.

the Guy who plays Lessing also plays the first vampire in Supernatural.

When we first see him, he's tied to a chair and they're hammering spikes through his hands for information, letting him heal and them hammering more spikes.

Janeway is a wussy.

 

[R. Star]

...and Lessing were not in Federation space

But Lessing was aboard a Starfleet vessel, in the custody of a superior officer, in effect (or actually) under arrest. Prisoners receive protection from "the angry mob." And they certainly aren't thrown to the wolves.

The interrogation was to acquire information needed to prevent further murders, not to reacquire Seven and the Doctor, much less a generator.

Janeway inquiry was to Equinox's tactical status.

They (the animals) are the authorities of a realm of space that they can only enter for brief periods of time? These things live in subspace, they're not even part of our universe, how could they possible be the "authorities?"

Actually they do, it just that we can't understand their speech. But when we have taught animals sign language, some level of communication can take place. And just as we can't directly talk with animals here, the crew of the Voyager couldn't directly talk to the animals in this episode. What limited communication that took place was through a interpreter, who engages in direct mental contact.

In the book (non-canon) Star Trek: The New Voyages from 1976, there is a story called The Hunting, where Mr. Spock mind melds with a predatory animal and engages in limited communication with it.

you believe you have the authority

No I don't.

to assign fewer rights to certain kinds of people

Like prisoners?

You can make an arguement about the interpreter speaking for them either way to be certain. But as for their intelligence?

I think the fact that they could attack Equinox at will, attack another similar vessel of the same race, adapt their tactics to penetrate their shields on numerous occasions, restrain themselves from attacking Voyager once the truce is struck, along with specificly targetting the biofuel engine thing with a freaking vengeance, is fairly solid proof of intelligence.

Maybe not on the level of most of the Trekverse aliens, but they were reasonably self-aware.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Smarter than Pakleds?

 

[Harbinger]

Already said most likely, but the aliens were intelligent. They communicated with Janeway with the help of the aliens who are able to summon them. Janeway went a bit overboard in her anger, although.

 

[R. Star]

Smarter than Pakleds?

Now that would have actually been amusing. Would be be moral to use Pakleds for biofuel?

 

[stj]

Lessing was not in secure custody. The subspace people's attack on the species slaughtering some of them was not a violation of the peace according to Federation jurisdiction. Nor was it in contravention of the established judicial norms, for they were not in jurisdiction of a Federation court. Very likely, given the greater militarism of the modern Treks, Janeway was indeed legally judge, jury and executioner.

But forget for a moment the false claims to legal rights for Lessing. It is still human to think he should have had a trial and should not face mob justice, which by our lights isn't really justice at all. Thus in a naive way of thinking, by visceral feeling, he deserved protection. How much protection? Protection while he abetted Ransom's contintued career of muder? Insisting that Lessing's human rights demanded he be protected even as he shielded ongoing murders from pursuit means placing his human rights about the subspace people's rights. True, this uphold the great conservative moral principle that some people are worth more than others, but I find it indecent.

Again, it is all perfectly stupid, as Lessing need only have lied to escape any danger of justice. The episode was clumsily written to frame Janeway as a PMS bitch. That should be the controversy. Instead the controversy is that the hag didn't get hers.

 

[R. Star]

Lessing was not in secure custody. The subspace people's attack on the species slaughtering some of them was not a violation of the peace according to Federation jurisdiction. Nor was it in contravention of the established judicial norms, for they were not in jurisdiction of a Federation court. Very likely, given the greater militarism of the modern Treks, Janeway was indeed legally judge, jury and executioner.

But forget for a moment the false claims to legal rights for Lessing. It is still human to think he should have had a trial and should not face mob justice, which by our lights isn't really justice at all. Thus in a naive way of thinking, by visceral feeling, he deserved protection. How much protection? Protection while he abetted Ransom's contintued career of muder? Insisting that Lessing's human rights demanded he be protected even as he shielded ongoing murders from pursuit means placing his human rights about the subspace people's rights. True, this uphold the great conservative moral principle that some people are worth more than others, but I find it indecent.

Again, it is all perfectly stupid, as Lessing need only have lied to escape any danger of justice. The episode was clumsily written to frame Janeway as a PMS bitch. That should be the controversy. Instead the controversy is that the hag didn't get hers.

I'll agree on that. Her behavior in this episode was borderline insane. "I will kill you if you don't tell me where to find your captan so I can kill him for betraying the Federation's principles!"

And yeah.. I mean, killing space slugs to get home is so much worse than like.... allying with the Borg and devoloping weapons to help them fight another species and killing who knows how many of them?

 

[Anwar]

If those other aliens were omnicidal maniacs more powerful and more dangerous than the Borg, then yes what Ransom did was far worse.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Directive 101 is real.

Every reason why Picard was supposed to let Wesley die in justice held true in Equinox if the Subspace people wanted to apply their Justice to Ransoms crew.

Voyager and Equinox are both Federation soil.

 

[R. Star]

If those other aliens were omnicidal maniacs more powerful and more dangerous than the Borg, then yes what Ransom did was far worse.

Yeah, killing space slugs we never see again is so much better than helping the Borg stay off annihilation, kill an untold number of a species the Borg attacked that happens to be ultra powerful, and making that said species an enemy of the Federation all to get home.

But by god, we draw the line at killing a few dozen space slugs to get home soon!

 

[Violet.Phoenix]

If those other aliens were omnicidal maniacs more powerful and more dangerous than the Borg, then yes what Ransom did was far worse.

Yeah, killing space slugs we never see again is so much better than helping the Borg stay off annihilation, kill an untold number of a species the Borg attacked that happens to be ultra powerful, and making that said species an enemy of the Federation all to get home.

But by god, we draw the line at killing a few dozen space slugs to get home soon!

These 'space slugs' as you call them, were originally benign beings that had no interest in our galaxy or posed any threat to the Federation until provoked. Ransom decided to mosey on in and kill some of them for his own selfish reasons, thus dragging himself and eventually Janeway into an unnecessary conflict.

The Borg did the same thing with Species 8472 in their quest for assimilation. By encroaching upon their territory, the Borg sparked the war with Species 8742, and again dragged Voyager into it. But in this case the threat was not local but galactic. Species 8472 had the means and the will to destroy the Federation and severely upset the balance of power in the galaxy. Imagine what would have happened if they had been allowed to continue unhindered...