Equal Pay Debate

[UncleRogi]

I think it's ridiculous that women are paid less for the exact same job as men. To me ,
this makes no logical sense. What's the why?

Is there a sound, logical argument for this phenomena? I've yet to hear an explanation for
it that makes sense.

Has anyone in the Community here ever heard one?

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

The only arguments I‘ve heard are that women negotiate less well for their pay and it‘s their own fault.
And that they are a higher cost factor (pregnancies and related health issues).
And that they just don‘t deliver the same results as men.

Mind you, those are not my arguments and I don‘t agree with them.

 

[Spot261]

I'm waiting with baited breath to see if anyone mentions pregnancy......

This seems to be one of those things where no one openly disagrees with the central premise but somehow the situation remains the same.

 

[auntiehill]

Why do businesses pay women less? Because they CAN.

We need to change the laws so that they CAN NOT.

 

[Balok's Decoy]

I think it's ridiculous that women are paid less for the exact same job as men. To me ,
this makes no logical sense. What's the why?

Is there a sound, logical argument for this phenomena? I've yet to hear an explanation for
it that makes sense.

Has anyone in the Community here ever heard one?

There isn't a logical argument against equal pay and it shouldn't be a debate.

 

[Spot261]

There isn't a logical argument against equal pay and it shouldn't be a debate.

That's basically it in a nutshell.

Not sure what else there is to say

 

[UssGlenn]

I think it's ridiculous that women are paid less for the exact same job as men. To me ,
this makes no logical sense. What's the why?

Is there a sound, logical argument for this phenomena? I've yet to hear an explanation for
it that makes sense.

First we need to remember that the pay gap is 6% not 23%. Whenever I see a politician trot out the 77 cents on the dollar line I stop listening because I know they are more interested in political points than reality. The issue is the line "exact same job" Unfortunately, women and men don't have the same jobs in the same proportions. For whatever reason, on average there are more women in lower paying fields. You may think those fields are underpaid, but that is a separate issue from the pay gap. So when comparing unmatched jobs you get 77%. Once you control for things like major, occupation, and parental leave, you drop down to 6%. It's tempting to attribute the remaining gap to discrimination, but it's difficult to prove. Since wage discrimination has been illegal in the US since 1963, nobody wants to get sued, and most people aren't mustache twirling sexists, I tend to think a chunk of that 6% is little things unique to each person that are hard to control for in group studies.

 

[Spot261]

First we need to remember that the pay gap is 6% not 23%. Whenever I see a politician trot out the 77 cents on the dollar line I stop listening because I know they are more interested in political points than reality. The issue is the line "exact same job" Unfortunately, women and men don't have the same jobs in the same proportions. For whatever reason, on average there are more women in lower paying fields. You may think those fields are underpaid, but that is a separate issue from the pay gap. So when comparing unmatched jobs you get 77%. Once you control for things like major, occupation, and parental leave, you drop down to 6%. It's tempting to attribute the remaining gap to discrimination, but it's difficult to prove. Since wage discrimination has been illegal in the US since 1963, nobody wants to get sued, and most people aren't mustache twirling sexists, I tend to think a chunk of that 6% is little things unique to each person that are hard to control for in group studies.

Interesting analysis and valid point about making the distinction between a like for like pay gap and differences between job roles. Bear in mind though:

• noone limited this to the US and
• even if we do 6% when comparing samples of this size is very much a significant figure and...
• that women typically find themselves in lower paying roles is not really a preferable scenario, it simply reframes the problem; why are those roles lower paid and why is it lower pay correlates with female representation when looking across industry types?

 

[MacLeod]

It should be the same pay for the same job regardless of gender.

Sure there might be some slight differences in pay for workers who work within a banded pay scale such as some retailers might do based upon takings for a particular branch but so long as the pay each gender within that scale not a massive issue.

As for issues related to pregnancies and initial period after childbirth, the later is not gender specific in the UK as a portion of leave can be split between parents.

https://www.gov.uk/shared-parental-leave-and-pay

As for pay negotiations (aside from starting a new job, when there might be some) that's handled by between the Union and the company in many cases in the UK and then the members vote on the pay offer.

Now in some regions of the world women might be scared of asking for more money for work for fear of being fired for simply asking for more money because some regions might have more lax laws regarding firing without cause.

 

[UncleRogi]

First we need to remember that the pay gap is 6% not 23%. Whenever I see a politician trot out the 77 cents on the dollar line I stop listening because I know they are more interested in political points than reality. The issue is the line "exact same job" Unfortunately, women and men don't have the same jobs in the same proportions. For whatever reason, on average there are more women in lower paying fields. You may think those fields are underpaid, but that is a separate issue from the pay gap. So when comparing unmatched jobs you get 77%. Once you control for things like major, occupation, and parental leave, you drop down to 6%. It's tempting to attribute the remaining gap to discrimination, but it's difficult to prove. Since wage discrimination has been illegal in the US since 1963, nobody wants to get sued, and most people aren't mustache twirling sexists, I tend to think a chunk of that 6% is little things unique to each person that are hard to control for in group studies.

This has some validity, but what set me off was a woman hockey player telling us that the
women went to the Olympic Committee and wanted equal pay. The Comm. said "No."
"Well then, we won't play."
"Yes, you will."
So the women contacted every woman player they could find and gained solidarity. They got a
raise, but still not equal.
How is playing hockey (or soccer, for that matter) different for men and women? It's not!
I didn't hear any reasoning for this. Why not? Cuz it's STUPID and not defensible!
Also until recently, women weren't allowed to ski jump. The official reason?
"It might hurt their reproductive future."



Rant over. Thanks, Folk.

 

[Tenacity]

How is playing hockey (or soccer, for that matter) different for men and women?

`Men's hockey and soccer pulls more viewers and therefor can charge more for admissions and commercil time.

 

[scotpens]

Why do businesses pay women less? Because they CAN.

We need to change the laws so that they CAN NOT.

Equal pay for equal work is the law. It's been Federal law since 1963.

There exists legal recourse to remedy legitimate cases of pay discrimination: file a civil suit and/or file a complaint with the EEOC.

 

[Spot's Meow]

I have actually heard a lot of debate on the 'why' recently. There is of course some degree of direct discrimination, but when we set that aside, the gap still exists. So what are the other reasons? The Freakonomics radio show has two episodes on it that I recommend:
The True Story of the Gender Pay Gap
What Can Uber Teach Us About the Gender Pay Gap?

Basically, even in cases where direct discrimination is shown not to be a factor (such as the Uber example), it boils down to structural issues in our society. Women are generally held more responsible for child and elder care. This requires them to work less hours. In the short term this shouldn't have much effect, but over the course of their career this means that they are slowly falling behind as they have less time to gain the experience that men are getting, since men typically don't have the same interruptions and work longer hours.

Until there are equal expectations on women and men when it comes to child and elder care, I don't see the gender pay gap going away.

 

[WraithDukat]

Women cost more to employ:

1) Maternity pay, if you want to remove this as a factor give men the exact same rights.

2) The expect all kinds of perks, like fexitime etc so they can pick up kids. When they do this others have to pick up their slack, costing you money and annoying other members of staff. Again, give the same rights to men if you want to get rid of this, the men would never get away with leaving as often as the women do.

3) They constantly want the heating on, even in summer.

4) Yak Yak Yak much more than their male counterparts, especially the younger ones.

Until there are equal expectations on women and men when it comes to child and elder care, I don't see the gender pay gap going away.

Exactly, this is what it boils down to.

 

[Stoo]

are you a character from a 1970s sitcom?

 

[Spot261]

1) Maternity pay, if you want to remove this as a factor give men the exact same rights.

In the UK we already have.

2) The expect all kinds of perks, like fexitime etc so they can pick up kids. When they do this others have to pick up their slack, costing you money and annoying other members of staff. Again, give the same rights to men if you want to get rid of this, the men would never get away with leaving as often as the women do.

Men don't get flexitime or pick up kids?

3) They constantly want the heating on, even in summer.

Errr...

4) Yak Yak Yak much more than their male counterparts, especially the younger ones.

Obviously you've never worked with me.

I'm assuming in fairness your post was tongue in cheek by the way.....

 

[WraithDukat]

In the UK we don't. The woman can transfer only a few weeks (I can't remember the exact number) only if SHE wants too.

A man taking that much flexitime would be frowned up, granted this is because of social constructs that woman can hardly be blamed for.

Not sure what the 'Err' was about.

As for the final point it was a sweeping generalisation to be fair, but a generally true one in my experience.

 

[MacLeod]

Women cost more to employ:

1) Maternity pay, if you want to remove this as a factor give men the exact same rights.

2) The expect all kinds of perks, like fexitime etc so they can pick up kids. When they do this others have to pick up their slack, costing you money and annoying other members of staff. Again, give the same rights to men if you want to get rid of this, the men would never get away with leaving as often as the women do.

3) They constantly want the heating on, even in summer.

4) Yak Yak Yak much more than their male counterparts, especially the younger ones.



Exactly, this is what it boils down to.

In the UK as far as I am aware there is no gender requirement when it comes to asking for flexitime.

I suspect many places that have heating/AC set it so it keeps temp around room temp of 21C.

 

[WraithDukat]

In the UK as far as I am aware there is no gender requirement when it comes to asking for flexitime.

No, but in terms of been granted it/the amount you're asking for becoming an issue is an issue for the individual employer. As far as I'm aware there is no legal right at all.

 

[Spot261]

In the UK we don't. The woman can transfer only a few weeks (I can't remember the exact number) only if SHE wants too.

Fifty, the man can't have the two week recovery period post birth. Hardly seems unfair.

A man taking that much flexitime would be frowned up, granted this is because of social constructs that woman can hardly be blamed for.

Why would they? Flexitime is non gender specific. Men pick up kids from school too.

Not sure what the 'Err' was about.

Because it was hard to know what else to say to the absurd heating comment, it was a blatant sexist stereotype elevated to the pretense of a real argument.

As for the final point it was a sweeping generalisation to be fair, but a generally true one in my experience.

It also came across as openly sexist.