Episode of the Week: 2x16 "Q Who"

[Captrek]

And despite all the talk in this episode of the Borg's ability to "analyze and adapt," future episodes depict the Borg failing to analyze or adapt, making the same mistakes over and over again. Continuing to allow Starfleet officers to walk among them unmolested because they're "not seen as a threat" is but one example.

 

[jimbotron]

Were it not for First Contact establishing the idea that there was always a Borg queen, the fact that we suddenly see a queen after BOBW would have been a neat "adaptation".

After all, the Borg were defeated in BOBW because their one unified mind was tricked and reprogrammed. What better way to prevent that from happening again than having an independent mind overseeing the collective?

I find it hard to believe the queen was tricked into regenerating along with all the drones. Oh yeah, and then suggesting she used some interdimensional space-wedgie to get out or that she exists on a higher plane, come on. (Probably Braga's idea )

Later on in Voyager, they come across a Human who was a liberated Borg. She said she was captured at Wolf 359. Um, what?

 

[Timo]

Umm, what what? The Borg assimilate people and starships. After a victorious battle, no doubt the assimilated starships were put to good use as kernels for future Cubes, and the assimilated people were utilized as their crews.

I find it hard to believe the queen was tricked into regenerating along with all the drones.

Then again, when Her Drones went asleep under foreign command, that would be a perfect time to scuttle and run.

As for "astral plane", there's every indication that the Queen is a software entity first and foremost. She just has access to bodies - a cloned supply of those, as we see alternating Krige-Thompson-Krige-Thompson bodies...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Jeyl]

What better way to prevent that from happening again than having an independent mind overseeing the collective?

"Q Who" actually had this discussion.

TROI: We're not dealing with an individual mind. They don't have a single leader. It's the collective minds of all of them.
PICARD: That would have definite advantages.
TROI: Yes, A single leader can make mistakes. It's far less likely in the combined whole.

And guess what happened when they introduced the Borg Queen in Star Trek? She made mistakes! She actually trusted Data, she blew up several of her own Borg ships just to destroy one or two free minded drones, and she blew up herself despite being in a BORG WARSHIP in an attempt to prevent Janeway from escaping.

I'll say this now. The Borg Queen WAS A MISTAKE. It was a beautifully acted and well designed character, but it did more harm than good. The moment you give a formally non-single entity force an individual leader who controls everything, the less intimidating they become because you now have someone you can defeat. You think the Thing from John Carpenter's "The Thing" would have been as effective if there was a leader thing who gloated at our heroes and when killed, everything was fine? the Borg should have remained "The Thing" of Star Trek.

 

[MikeS]

The Borg as written in the novel Vendetta (post-BOBW, sans Queen) were certainly scarier.

 

[Marsden]

What better way to prevent that from happening again than having an independent mind overseeing the collective?

"Q Who" actually had this discussion.

TROI: We're not dealing with an individual mind. They don't have a single leader. It's the collective minds of all of them.
PICARD: That would have definite advantages.
TROI: Yes, A single leader can make mistakes. It's far less likely in the combined whole.

And guess what happened when they introduced the Borg Queen in Star Trek? She made mistakes! She actually trusted Data, she blew up several of her own Borg ships just to destroy one or two free minded drones, and she blew up herself despite being in a BORG WARSHIP in an attempt to prevent Janeway from escaping.

I'll say this now. The Borg Queen WAS A MISTAKE. It was a beautifully acted and well designed character, but it did more harm than good. The moment you give a formally non-single entity force an individual leader who controls everything, the less intimidating they become because you now have someone you can defeat. You think the Thing from John Carpenter's "The Thing" would have been as effective if there was a leader thing who gloated at our heroes and when killed, everything was fine? the Borg should have remained "The Thing" of Star Trek.

That's a great point, the limitless unity of them is one of the scariest aspects of them and the queen really hurts it.

The notion that killing any one or even a bunch of the individual borg really doesn't matter because they can just make more. Also, does the individual borg actually die? They've established in general science fiction and Star Trek in particular that the mind of an individual can be "downloaded" into another body, the borg conscience may just be in storage until another body is found or just exist as extra knowlege in the matrix (no not that Matrix!), therefore making them nigh immortal. That is scary. Like a disease, wipe out billions but the remaining few germs can kill you, the borg can't be stopped.

Then they get a Queen and kill her and bang they're dead.

 

[jimbotron]

I categorize the Borg three ways:

There are the Q Who/BOBW Borg. Unstoppable and intimidating. Not unlike a zombie horde. It doesn't matter how many bullets you have, they will get you.

There are the I, Borg/Descent Borg - humanized and hamstrung.

Then there are the First Contact/Voyager Borg. Stripped of all their mystique, they become just another Trek villain like the Klingons or Romulans.

 

[Silvercrest]

. Gene Roddenberry decided that the best way to create a worthy adversary for the TNG crew was to take all the elements he didn't like about humanity such as greed, imperialistic attitudes, unrefined behaviors, uncaring morals and sexist views (.....starting to sound like Gene actually) and dial it up to 11. The end result was the Ferengi, a race so ridiculous that their premier episode was hated by everyone involved. ... Something else had to be done.

Why anyone would think that a worthy adversary would be characterized as "someone you really don't like" is beyond me.

But it seems to me that when they created a truly worthy adversary in the Borg, they did so by going the opposite route. They took all the aspects of Roddenberry's "evolved humanity", maybe unintentionally, and dialed that up to 11. Or maybe 99.

Anyway: lack of interpersonal conflict, working toward perfection for its own sake, the attitude that you've evolved beyond your own flaws, and the arrogance that comes with all that. That's the Borg in a nutshell.

What does everyone think?

 

[Captrek]

. Gene Roddenberry decided that the best way to create a worthy adversary for the TNG crew was to take all the elements he didn't like about humanity such as greed, imperialistic attitudes, unrefined behaviors, uncaring morals and sexist views (.....starting to sound like Gene actually) and dial it up to 11. The end result was the Ferengi, a race so ridiculous that their premier episode was hated by everyone involved. ... Something else had to be done.

Why anyone would think that a worthy adversary would be characterized as "someone you really don't like" is beyond me.

Fox News Channel gets very good ratings with their depiction of a universe in which Muslims, secularists, immigrants and homosexuals are coming to destroy us all.

 

[Silvercrest]

Fair enough! But those are just adversaries, not worthy ones.

 

[Marsden]

. Gene Roddenberry decided that the best way to create a worthy adversary for the TNG crew was to take all the elements he didn't like about humanity such as greed, imperialistic attitudes, unrefined behaviors, uncaring morals and sexist views (.....starting to sound like Gene actually) and dial it up to 11. The end result was the Ferengi, a race so ridiculous that their premier episode was hated by everyone involved. ... Something else had to be done.

Why anyone would think that a worthy adversary would be characterized as "someone you really don't like" is beyond me.

But it seems to me that when they created a truly worthy adversary in the Borg, they did so by going the opposite route. They took all the aspects of Roddenberry's "evolved humanity", maybe unintentionally, and dialed that up to 11. Or maybe 99.

Anyway: lack of interpersonal conflict, working toward perfection for its own sake, the attitude that you've evolved beyond your own flaws, and the arrogance that comes with all that. That's the Borg in a nutshell.

What does everyone think?

Sounds like a good observation to me. If you read his novelization of TMP and the "new humans" it really is the logical conclusion, the only difference is the inorganic add on parts. And that's somewhat cosmetic.