Episode IX Speculation and Discussion

[Campe]

I don’t want every detail spelled out for me. That’s what novels and comics are for. The sequel trilogy movies stand on their own. I don’t need to know every detail about our main characters. Only what’s necessary for the plot. The sequels aren’t perfect but they’ve done a admirable job.

 

[BillJ]

I don’t want every detail spelled out for me. That’s what novels and comics are for. The sequel trilogy movies stand on their own. I don’t need to know every detail about our main characters. Only what’s necessary for the plot. The sequels aren’t perfect but they’ve done a admirable job.

I think that is why the original Star Trek, and the original Star Wars trilogy have lasted so long in the hearts of fans. They was plenty of room in the storytelling for each fan to put their own mental stamp on things.

Beyond "controlling the galaxy", I'm not really sure what the Empire really was or what its goals were in the original trilogy. It was incredibly vague except they were the "bad guys".

 

[fireproof78]

Indeed. I seem to recall a bit of an outcry over TPM having more political discussion in it than people were expecting. Same with AOTC.

Amusingly, there are now complaints that people want more politics in the ST...

Proof positive that there is no satisfying fans-note, hyperbolic statement is hyperbole.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

no no no novels and comics can add to stories maybe provide tidbits of new information that can help the universe, but for important story points.. for me to be invested.. for me to understand why this is happening.. that should all be handled in the film. So yeah I disagree. Tell the story, don't rely on the merchandising and marketing department to fill in the blanks you were too lazy to fill in.. and that's what all the books and comics are.. part of the marketing.. an attempt to plaster the star wars logo in as many places as they can in order to promote the films.. or the theme parks..

 

[BillJ]

no no no novels and comics can add to stories maybe provide tidbits of new information that can help the universe, but for important story points.. for me to be invested.. for me to understand why this is happening.. that should all be handled in the film. So yeah I disagree. Tell the story, don't rely on the merchandising and marketing department to fill in the blanks you were too lazy to fill in.. and that's what all the books and comics are.. part of the marketing.. an attempt to plaster the star wars logo in as many places as they can in order to promote the films.. or the theme parks..

You really didn't answer any of the points posted. Novels and comics often do a far better job of fleshing out details of the characters and concepts than a two-hour movie.

I just don't think kids are going to be interested in a two-hour treatise (or trilogy) on expunging the Empire of every one with sympathies towards it.

 

[fireproof78]

no no no novels and comics can add to stories maybe provide tidbits of new information that can help the universe, but for important story points.. for me to be invested.. for me to understand why this is happening.. that should all be handled in the film. So yeah I disagree. Tell the story, don't rely on the merchandising and marketing department to fill in the blanks you were too lazy to fill in.. and that's what all the books and comics are.. part of the marketing.. an attempt to plaster the star wars logo in as many places as they can in order to promote the films.. or the theme parks..

So, what Lucas did for years and years and years? Let's not pretend that this is new to the franchise at all.

Also, I'll completely disagree since I think the films did an adequate job of setting the stage. I might have added one or two details, but in general I followed along with the story.

Contrast that to TPM where people keep telling me to read the books in order to understand the full story.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

But I'm not going to feed Disney's marketing machine and spend time reading novels for a supplementary material of a story that didn't do enough to captivate me.
For example, Trials and Tribble-ations is a classic DS9 episode, and the characters of the Temperal Observers was well-played.. what they do is hinted at and given enough context for the story to work. It worked so well that I almost considered buying the novel that featured those guys..
But that's only because they were used well in the episode.. and I don't feel I NEED to read any novels to understand the gist of those guys. But it was well-played that i might want to. Same with Andrew Robinson's Stitch in Time novel about Garak. That novel was superb, but only worked because so much of what makes it work was established in the scenes we saw on screen.

 

[BillJ]

So, what Lucas did for years and years and years?

It was different, for reasons.

 

[BillJ]

But that's only because they were used well in the episode.. and I don't feel I NEED to read any novels to understand the gist of those guys.

I understood the First Order/New Republic fine with what was presented on screen. There was as much information on them as there was of the Empire/Rebellion in the original trilogy.

 

[Campe]

But I'm not going to feed Disney's marketing machine and spend time reading novels for a supplementary material of a story that didn't do enough to captivate me.
For example, Trials and Tribble-ations is a classic DS9 episode, and the characters of the Temperal Observers was well-played.. what they do is hinted at and given enough context for the story to work. It worked so well that I almost considered buying the novel that featured those guys..
But that's only because they were used well in the episode.. and I don't feel I NEED to read any novels to understand the gist of those guys. But it was well-played that i might want to. Same with Andrew Robinson's Stitch in Time novel about Garak. That novel was superb, but only worked because so much of what makes it work was established in the scenes we saw on screen.

That’s fine. You didn’t enjoy the sequels. No one faults you that. Most people would move on. There’s nothing we can do to change your mind. And vice versa. Continuing the nitpicking just doesn’t seem productive.

 

[fireproof78]

But I'm not going to feed Disney's marketing machine and spend time reading novels for a supplementary material of a story that didn't do enough to captivate me.

Then don't. There is so much more SW to enjoy. Why spend so much energy on something that you don't enjoy? It makes zero sense.

 

[BillJ]

That’s fine. You didn’t enjoy the sequels. No one faults you that. Most people would move on. There’s nothing we can do to change your mind. And vice versa. Continuing the nitpicking just doesn’t seem productive.

Hey, I think we've made progress! He isn't screeching "Kathleen Kennedy!!!" in every post now. Another thirty years, and he might be able to come up with something coherent.

 

[JD]

I think cinema has changed so much. It used to be that Yoda moving the X Wing with effort was truly a special moment, but for newer audiences who can see Ebony Maw move things with his mind without effort (and same with broom boy at the end of TLJ) .. the ideas of what makes the Force special seem a bit lost on audiences now

I never really saw the Force as something that special, it's just an excuse to give some people magical powers, which have been around since long before the OT. Yeah, they built up an interesting mythology around it now, but it's still not really that unique in the wider world of SFF.

It's like TFA was, as far as the main points go, a hard reset. The Empire was defeated.. yet it's back again, and they already dominate everything.

Actually, as of TFA the First Order doesn't dominate everything, they were still off in a fairly small corner of the galaxy. That's why it was so shocking for people when they destroyed the New Republic's capital system, as far as most of the galaxy was concerned The First Order was nothing to be concerned about. That was their big announcement to the Galaxy that they actually were something that needed to be taken seriously.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

I understood the First Order/New Republic fine with what was presented on screen. There was as much information on them as there was of the Empire/Rebellion in the original trilogy.

yes but the franchise was not built out.. the POV was a farmer and a smuggler, and it only expanded in the way these characters saw the events.. as needed. But now we have prequels and spinoffs and a timeline that could be drawn, so having more context as to how the defeated empire became the first order.. to find out where Leia messed up running the NR is important ..

Seemed they just wanted their X-Wings vs TIEs.. the story was not earned.

 

[BillJ]

the POV was a farmer and a smuggler

The POV of the sequel trilogy is an outcast orphan struggling to survive on a desert world and a Stormtrooper who went MIA.

...so having more context as to how the defeated empire became the first order.. to find out where Leia messed up running the NR is important ..

No, it really isn't. At least not to me. We know by the setting the New Republic is failing, the "why?" really isn't pertinent to the story at hand. Now, a later novel/TV show that fleshes out the fall? I'm not against. Any more than how the Empire came to power was important to the original trilogy. Possibly interesting minutiae is what it is.

While Leia is in it, the sequel trilogy isn't the story of her failure as leader of a civilian government.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

It's the same reason that Snoke needs a backstory .. we have a sense of the timeline and all the factors at play in SW, and someone has to have sense.. if he was so powerful why didn't palpatine notice him? anyway this is how I feel--my opinion

 

[BillJ]

It's the same reason that Snoke needs a backstory .. we have a sense of the timeline and all the factors at play in SW, and someone has to have sense.. if he was so powerful why didn't palpatine notice him? anyway this is how I feel--my opinion

I appreciate when you can give your opinion when not running the folks involved down.

I understand that these movies aren't everything you've wanted them to be. Which is fair enough. I'm a pretty tough critic of Star Trek: Discovery. I understand that something can be overwhelmingly disappointing, especially after waiting for it for so long. At the same time, you're holding them to a fairly impossible standard of something you experienced in childhood.

As culturally significant as the original trilogy was, I can shred it to bits based on what was really a sloppy script. But, I put it in the disc player and it whooshes me away to a completely different time in my life. It isn't fair to criticize either the prequel or sequel trilogy for not being a fountain of youth.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

I appreciate when you can give your opinion when not running the folks involved down.

I understand that these movies aren't everything you've wanted them to be. Which is fair enough. I'm a pretty tough critic of Star Trek: Discovery. I understand that something can be overwhelmingly disappointing, especially after waiting for it for so long. At the same time, you're holding them to a fairly impossible standard of something you experienced in childhood.

As culturally significant as the original trilogy was, I can shred it to bits based on what was really a sloppy script. But, I put it in the disc player and it whooshes me away to a completely different time in my life. It isn't fair to criticize either the prequel or sequel trilogy for not being a fountain of youth.

Thanks! I safely agree with everything here.. and maybe my standards were too high. I guess I was picturing something different, and maybe my expectations were to high.
There are certain scenes and performances in the new films I like. also I like Rogue One and Solo quite a bit. But to me (and this is just what I feel) a sequel in any continuity has to somehow to somehow payoff what we've seen before... even soft reboot type sequels..
I wish I could articulate that better.

 

[Campe]

But to me (and this is just what I feel) a sequel in any continuity has to somehow to somehow payoff what we've seen before... even soft reboot type sequels..
I wish I could articulate that better.

Trilogy isn’t over yet, to be fair.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

I guess what I'm getting at is that when you see a "legasequel" the key is to believe that this is all happening in the same universe. Creed does this well for the Rocky franchise. Even the things that happen in the huge time gap that we don't see have to feel credible, have to have just as much verisimilitude to them .. everything should seem natural. With something like Star Wars.. if the heroes won at the end of your last movie, tread carefully before resetting the game board so that in truth, they actually lost. Tread carefully on giving us new interpretations of old characters, especially ones that benefitted (and inspired people) for being simple archetypes.. I'm not saying you can't change them, but handle changes delicately.

If you put TFA in your player right after ANH it's like.. doesn't make sense. it's just like nothing has changed. The victory doesn't matter. in LOTR, the history of the world..even what we didn't see, was so important.. it mattered. For me, the history.. the things that happened.. was part of the appeal of star Wars. but they are just saying.. it's Empire vs Rebels once again, and if you want to know how it got there... buy the books. That is not storytelling. You don't need a lot of exposition but you still need to earn your story. We wanted to believe that what happened was real, that it could be extrapolated from what happened after RotJ.