Episode IX Speculation and Discussion

[Trekkin]

Head canon and common sense?

Riiight. You know that you can’t use that to correct people discussing the actual canonical events, right?

Wait a sec. You're vastly mis-representing the timeline. Luke got is hand chopped off, then went back to training for THREE YEARS before Yoda declares that he's done and is a Jedi (after he faces Vader again).

It has about as much baring as me going ‘stop saying Padme’s dead. My fanfic has her faking her death and eloping with Captain Typho. Because common sense dictates that her death was total bullshit, and who wouldn’t fuck Captain Typho?’

 

[WarpFactorZ]

Riiight. You know that you can’t use that to correct people discussing the actual canonical events, right?
’

What canon sources say otherwise? Honest question, because I don't follow anything other than the movies.

 

[Trekkin]

Prove Padme’s not currently frolicking with Typho on Geonosis. That’s not really the way fiction works, man.

Or life, come to think of it. Those who make the claim, need the evidence. Not ‘make claim, then dare everyone to prove the negative when asked for evidence.’

But especially with fiction. Where nothing exists at all, until it’s established in some way.

For eg. Until TPM established the characters firmly as human, we didn’t actually know the main characters species. People could make assumptions (or, you know...not care), but it just wasn’t a ‘thing’ until that point.



*Although we do know that Yoda wasnt intended to be responsible for Luke’s improved swordplay. Deleted scenes have Luke only constructing the new lightsaber on Tatooine, whilst waiting for the droids to negotiate with Jabba.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

Prove Padme’s not currently frolicking with Typho on Geonosis. That’s not really the way fiction works, man.

Or life, come to think of it. Those who make the claim, need the evidence. Not ‘make claim, then dare everyone to prove the negative when asked for evidence.’

But especially with fiction. Where nothing exists at all, until it’s established in some way.

For eg. Until TPM established the characters firmly as human, we didn’t actually know the main characters species. People could make assumptions (or, you know...not care), but it just wasn’t a ‘thing’ until that point.



*Although we do know that Yoda wasnt intended to be responsible for Luke’s improved swordplay. Deleted scenes have Luke only constructing the new lightsaber on Tatooine, whilst waiting for the droids to negotiate with Jabba.

I have no clue what point you're trying to make. Sorry.

 

[fireproof78]

I have no clue what point you're trying to make. Sorry.

Perhaps I can simplify. You made a claim which means the burden of proof is on you to support that claim. The burden is not on others to disprove it.

 

[DigificWriter]

There are 4 years between the events of ANH and RotJ, and, yes, Luke coming back to Degobah in RotJ marks only his second contact with Yoda.... hence his surprise when Yoda tells him he requires no further training and already knows everything he needs to know.

 

[BillJ]

There are 4 years between the events of ANH and RotJ, and, yes, Luke coming back to Degobah in RotJ marks only his second contact with Yoda...

I don't remember anything dialogue-wise that gives any indication of the amount of time that passed during the span of the original trilogy.

 

[DigificWriter]

I don't remember anything dialogue-wise that gives any indication of the amount of time that passed during the span of the original trilogy.

It's not conveyed through in-film dialogue; it's conveyed through official supplemental materials and "Word of God" statements.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

Perhaps I can simplify. You made a claim which means the burden of proof is on you to support that claim. The burden is not on others to disprove it.

Luke is much stronger and disciplined in the Force by the time of ROTJ. He was a hot-headed novice in ESB who was soundly smacked down by Vader. Some significant training had to have occurred between the two movies. Since the only one who can train Luke is Yoda, logic seems to suggest that's where he went.

There are 4 years between the events of ANH and RotJ, and, yes, Luke coming back to Degobah in RotJ marks only his second contact with Yoda.... hence his surprise when Yoda tells him he requires no further training and already knows everything he needs to know.

There is nothing in ROTJ to suggest that was Luke's first time back to Degobah since ESB. See my point from above. The abilities he shows at Jabba's place didn't come about through self-reflection on the medical frigate while getting a new hand.

 

[DigificWriter]

There is nothing in ROTJ to suggest that was Luke's first time back to Degobah since ESB. See my point from above. The abilities he shows at Jabba's place didn't come about through self-reflection on the medical frigate while getting a new hand.

Except for his dialogue:

Luke:
But I need your help. I've come back to complete the training.

 

[Kor]

If we just go by the movies, then there is no indication whatsoever that Luke went back to Yoda for more training after ESB, then left him before the events of ROTJ, then went back to him yet again during ROTJ. ROTJ was the first time he saw Yoda since he left for Cloud City.

Kor

 

[WarpFactorZ]

Except for his dialogue:

That line doesn't preclude the notion that training was continuous between the end of ESB and beginning of ROTJ. It just means that Luke felt -- or Yoda taunted him -- that his training was incomplete when he left to save Han.

If we just go by the movies, then there is no indication whatsoever that Luke went back to Yoda for more training after ESB, then left him before the events of ROTJ, then went back to him yet again during ROTJ. ROTJ was the first time he saw Yoda since he left for Cloud City.

Kor

That makes no sense, though. How did Luke become the disciplined Jedi we see in Jabba's palace, when the last time we saw him he lost a hand due to his weakness? With self-training like that, who need Jedi masters!

 

[DigificWriter]

That line doesn't preclude the notion that training was continuous between the end of ESB and beginning of ROTJ. It just means that Luke felt -- or Yoda taunted him -- that his training was incomplete when he left to save Han.

Occam's Razor says "hi"... and so does the official Star Wars Canon.

That makes no sense, though. How did Luke become the disciplined Jedi we see in Jabba's palace, when the last time we saw him he lost a hand due to his weakness? With self-training like that, who need Jedi masters!

Whether it makes sense to you is irrelevant; official Star Wars Canon dictates that, after reaching Han, Luke returned to Degobah for the first time since taking off to Cloud City against Obi-Wan and Yoda's admonitions, and did so in order to fulfill the promise he'd made when he left to come back and complete his training... only for Yoda to tell him that he needed no more training.

 

[fireproof78]

Luke is much stronger and disciplined in the Force by the time of ROTJ. He was a hot-headed novice in ESB who was soundly smacked down by Vader. Some significant training had to have occurred between the two movies. Since the only one who can train Luke is Yoda, logic seems to suggest that's where he went.

That was never my impression or conclusion.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

Occam's Razor says "hi"... and so does the official Star Wars Canon..

So, Luke becoming well-trained on his own accord is the simplest explanation? What official source describes this?

That was never my impression or conclusion.

Well, then we agree to disagree.

 

[DigificWriter]

What official source describes this?

Return of the Jedi... and the official internal Holocron database maintained by Lucasfilm Story Group member Pablo Hidalgo.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

Return of the Jedi... and the official internal Holocron database maintained by Lucasfilm Story Group member Pablo Hidalgo.

The language in ROTJ is not that conclusive. I guess Pablo Hidalgo or whomever decided this after the fact is a pretty poor writer.

 

[DigificWriter]

The language in ROTJ is not that conclusive... to me.

Fixed that for you.

Also, your opinions mean nothing in the face of what is official SW narrative Canon.

 

[Turtletrekker]

What canon sources say otherwise? Honest question, because I don't follow anything other than the movies.

Well, the Canon timeline at Wookieepedia places The Empire Strikes Back at 3 years after the battle of Yavin and Return of the Jedi at 4 years after the battle of Yavin. I don't know specifically what of the new canon sources specifically place the movies there, but the folks at Wookieepedia are meticulous enough that I trust their word on the subject.

 

[fireproof78]

Well, then we agree to disagree.

Certainly, and that is your right. I just have not heard of the idea of Luke going and training again with Yoda expressed before. Not saying that it is not out there, but certainly a bit new to me.

Largely, my impression comes from the recurring theme of Luke's "Ben, why didn't you tell me?" question at the end of ESB and being restated in ROTJ. To me, this indicates that Luke hasn't had this conversation about his father's true identity with Ben or Yoda yet. Which, strikes me as odd given the severity of the emotional impact and that his mentors have been lying to him.