Episode 'Clues' and those two missing days.

[JesterFace]

In this episode the Enterprise-D crew basically lost two days.

Did the Paxans possibly give the crew some fake memories because might it become a problem at some point when no one remembers those days, at all. For example, someone might have had a birthday or something else special going on and special moments in life aren't that easy to forget.

I wonder what Starfleet thought when Picard didn't send any logs to them for two days, I'd imagine there would be at least one log a day going their way?

Missing two days completely is kind of weird. ”Hey Pete, remember what we did couple of days ago? Me neither.”

 

[Takeru]

There's nothing weird about it, from their perspective they encountered a wormhole and emerged somewhere else two days in the future, the end.

Wormholes connect two points in spacetime, time travel is a regular feature of wormholes. And the logs aren't send to starfleet daily, there's no reason for them to think anything's wrong just because they don't hear from a ship for some time.

 

[NCC-73515]

One of the best episodes!

 

[Mojochi]

One of the best episodes!

I think what I find coolest about it is that they didn't actually solve the problem with a foolproof fix. They just did the same thing over again, trying to account for anything that might clue them into the lie, like happened the 1st time, but the plan is still the same, fool the entire crew, have Data lie about it, and hope nobody looks too closely, because there are still certain things that if they were to begin looking closely at again, it could still unravel.

I doubt they could change that medical scan timestamp aging stuff Bev got onto, or the ship's chronometer tampering, or even that Worf had gotten a broken bone fixed. Begin to dig into that, & it all comes apart again. They just needed to work at trying to avoid anyone's curiosity getting piqued, such that they investigate & it comes to that again. That's pretty iffy territory to tread. It's rare to leave an episode like that

I do wonder how the heck they dealt with Deanna's psyche issue though, which was a big part in giving the truth away

 

[NCC-73515]

They did take care of all of that before the second one though. Without the pink plants, Worf's wrist getting a proper, undetectable fix, or simply healing that bit longer, and the probe picture now looking genuine, it only seemed like there was a glitch in the ship clock and that wasn't enough

 

[Takeru]

Of course the easiest solution would have been to tell Data to forget about the order to lie and just tell them the truth as soon as the Paxans weren't listening. Had Data told the crew the truth after waking them up they wouldn't have gone back, the Paxans secret would be put but who cares?

 

[Oddish]

I expect that Data, who lived aboard the Enterprise and was aware of all of the potential difficulties, knew what would need to be done. Between Picard's determination and Data's near-infallibility, a convincing cover story was created and all necessary evidence was fabricated. Including, of course, the deletion of all clues.

What would have been funny would be if, after several iterations of this, the Paxans just decided that humanity was just too clueless to pose a threat. So, they either send them on their way with memories intact, or establish diplomatic relations.

 

[Mojochi]

Of course the easiest solution would have been to tell Data to forget about the order to lie and just tell them the truth as soon as the Paxans weren't listening. Had Data told the crew the truth after waking them up they wouldn't have gone back, the Paxans secret would be put but who cares?

It's a fair point. I mean Starfleet officers are ordered to keep secret other just as touchy classified info. Frankly, how does this situation differ? In that the Paxans didn't trust ALL the ship's inhabitants to keep it so? Just Data?

Well, who cares what they think or want? They were going to murder 1000+ people just to stay in hiding, simply because they hadn't ever encountered a Data type situation before... or so we assume. It's very probable they have murdered multitudes before, who they couldn't memory wipe. So, they're assholess, whose wishes are contingent IMHO.

In fact, keeping it entirely secret from everyone is almost inviting someone else to blunder into them, in the future, & face damning consequences. I agree. Fake the coverup. Secretly tell Data to wait until they're a safe distance, & clue everyone back in, so that proper precautions can be taken to keep those assholes isolated. Inform Starfleet, & classify it. These guys are in the business of noninterference. I think they got this. "Nobody get anywhere near those jagoffs. They'll try to kill you for even knowing they exist"

 

[NCC-73515]

I think the fake wormhole is supposed to keep people away. That usually works and they don't murder anyone.

humanity was just too clueless

well that's what happens when you get rid of all the clues...

 

[Oddish]

well that's what happens when you get rid of all the clues...

Well, I walked into that, didn't I? One for you, @NCC-73515

 

[at Quark's]

In fact, keeping it entirely secret from everyone is almost inviting someone else to blunder into them, in the future, & face damning consequences. I agree. Fake the coverup. Secretly tell Data to wait until they're a safe distance, & clue everyone back in, so that proper precautions can be taken to keep those assholes isolated. Inform Starfleet, & classify it. These guys are in the business of noninterference. I think they got this. "Nobody get anywhere near those jagoffs. They'll try to kill you for even knowing they exist"

So, that's basically another form of the Quark argument in Prophet Motive

Wait. If you don't want to have any more contact with the Ferengi, that's fine with me. But by altering me, you won't be avoiding contact, you'll be encouraging it. My people are very inquisitive, and if you change me, they're going to want to know what happened. And they're going to come here to find out. Just as I came to find out what happened to Zek.

I wonder whether it would work on a species that is so xenophobic that even other species' knowledge of their existence even if that knowledge only serves to avoid their territory, seems to be absolutely unacceptable.

 

[Mojochi]

So, that's basically another form of the Quark argument in Prophet Motive

I wonder whether it would work on a species that is so xenophobic that even other species' knowledge of their existence even if that knowledge only serves to avoid their territory, seems to be absolutely unacceptable.

I doubt it. I'm saying you don't negotiate that with the Paxans the 2nd time. They clearly don't respect any guarantee of noninterraction. They're willing to kill to avoid even the knowledge of their existence getting out. It's amazing they even tolerated the compromise that was made at all, especially twice.

But frankly, that guarantee not only doesn't completely assure they get their demand met (Humans & untold others could still stumble upon them somehow) it also doesn't guarantee the safety of other Starfleet vessels either, whereas reporting it, quarantining the system, & classifying it, kind of does a better job of curtailing potential future incidents, & just don't let the Paxans know that, once you're clear of them. Play out the same plan, but secretly let Data know he should come forward after the fact... maybe a while after. It seems like the safer course of action for everybody, including the xenophobes, even if they're too xenophobic to see that.

 

[Doug Otte]

It's a fair point. I mean Starfleet officers are ordered to keep secret other just as touchy classified info. Frankly, how does this situation differ? In that the Paxans didn't trust ALL the ship's inhabitants to keep it so? Just Data?

Well, who cares what they think or want? They were going to murder 1000+ people just to stay in hiding, simply because they hadn't ever encountered a Data type situation before... or so we assume. It's very probable they have murdered multitudes before, who they couldn't memory wipe. So, they're assholess, whose wishes are contingent IMHO.

In fact, keeping it entirely secret from everyone is almost inviting someone else to blunder into them, in the future, & face damning consequences. I agree. Fake the coverup. Secretly tell Data to wait until they're a safe distance, & clue everyone back in, so that proper precautions can be taken to keep those assholes isolated. Inform Starfleet, & classify it. These guys are in the business of noninterference. I think they got this. "Nobody get anywhere near those jagoffs. They'll try to kill you for even knowing they exist"

We know that Starfleet could probably keep the secret, but the Paxans didn't know that!

I've always had the same qualms about this episode that others have expressed on this thread: explaining the missing time, covering all the evidence, etc.

 

[Mojochi]

I've always had the same qualms about this episode that others have expressed on this thread: explaining the missing time, covering all the evidence, etc.

Well, the trip through the wormhole explains the time discrepancies with Starfleet HQ, & if they don't investigate the cover story that they shot thru it in 30 seconds, & came out 2 days later in time, then they don't know about any missing time, & just reset their clock to normal, having figured they skipped over those 2 days.

However, IMHO there is no way to cover all the evidence. Too much of it is hard reality, broken bones, tampered tech, DNA time stamping, etc... that will always leave a trace, if you look close enough.

Their only goal was to better cover the truth up, so they'd be fooled enough to not go looking into it. The whole plan was to build a lie on a house of cards, & hope they can dupe themselves into not getting curious enough to investigate. It's an iffy play TBH, & kind of sketchy to boot.

We know that Starfleet could probably keep the secret, but the Paxans didn't know that!

Exactly, but who cares what they know? All they need to believe to be content, is that no one knows they exist, & since we know things might be safer & more secure if the crew DID know, & could do something to that end, then let the Paxans be the ones believing a lie. No one's going back there anyway.

You go through with the plan as it was, to appease the Paxans, who now believe no one but Data knows they exist, & he's sworn to secrecy, but you secretly countermand that order to Data, so he DOES later divulge the truth, once they're clear of danger.

Then everybody is in a better place to manage the issue of never letting anyone interact with the Paxans again, & the Paxans just go on believing the lie that know one knows about them... A lie that is much less likely to get uncovered than lying to an entire ship full of people who already didn't fall for it once

 

[at Quark's]

^While I agree that it would be the most pragmatic and probably wisest course of action, there's just one minor problem with that, Picard essentially cheats the Paxans, violates the terms of the treaty he agreed to, no matter how absurd they may be. How can he ever look young starry-eyed Wesley "we're from Starfleet, we don't lie!" straight in the face again? How beat him over the head in later episodes with quotes such as 'The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth, whether it's scientific truth or historical truth or personal truth! It is the guiding principle on which Starfleet is based.' ... he would need to add 'but you can double cross asshole enemy races, that's no problem at all!'

 

[JesterFace]

In the end of the episode when the second attempt to fool the Enterprise crew succeeds and Picard is about to go back and investigate the wormhole, Data suggests a probe could do the job. The face Picard makes looks like he almost knows they shouldn't go back....

 

[Mojochi]

In the end of the episode when the second attempt to fool the Enterprise crew succeeds and Picard is about to go back and investigate the wormhole, Data suggests a probe could do the job. The face Picard makes looks like he almost knows they shouldn't go back....

I'm actually willing to buy that to some degree, because it's often shown in Trek lore that memory wipes don't always eliminate everything, & even the most extreme example where it's a complete time loop (Like Cause & Effect) they still have rumblings of memory leaking over

^While I agree that it would be the most pragmatic and probably wisest course of action, there's just one minor problem with that, Picard essentially cheats the Paxans, violates the terms of the treaty he agreed to, no matter how absurd they may be. How can he ever look young starry-eyed Wesley "we're from Starfleet, we don't lie!" straight in the face again? How beat him over the head in later episodes with quotes such as 'The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth, whether it's scientific truth or historical truth or personal truth! It is the guiding principle on which Starfleet is based.' ... he would need to add 'but you can double cross asshole enemy races, that's no problem at all!'

Admittedly, it's not the highest of ethical practices to go about lying to them, but was it a treaty, or was it a last ditch compromise, hammered out in a desperate attempt to avoid being slaughtered? That's hardly fair & good faith terms at the onset. Plus, who's it hurting, that the soon-to-be strangers that wanted to kill them get fibbed to a little for the greater good?

As for Picard's "the truth at all costs" philosophy? Frankly, I'd like to have seen that put to the test in serious terms, like in The Pegasus, when he whistle-blows on Pressman by revealing the cloaked Enterprise to a Romulan ship... Would he have been so willing if there'd been 3 Romulan ships, who might've taken the opportunity to immediately fire on & destroy them?

I doubt it. His chief priority is to the lives aboard. "Ship & crew" That's what Riker puts #1 on the duty list in Thine Own Self. Picard was just grandstanding with Wes in The First Duty. That can't be a hard rule, across the board, least of all when imminent death is at odds with outing the truth. In some cases, dying for the truth? Sure. Maybe, but not always. So, a white lie to keep everyone safer from contact with the Paxans? I'd think everybody ought to be on board with it despite the falseness behind it

 

[at Quark's]

I agree. I wasn't really being serious in my previous post in the first place. I also believe in morality depending on the context ('It's OK to lie to the nazis if you save Jewish lives by doing so').

The thought of Picard doing this just struck me as funny, since usually he's the one prone to pontificating about moral principles and such.

 

[JediKnightButler]

It's a fair point. I mean Starfleet officers are ordered to keep secret other just as touchy classified info. Frankly, how does this situation differ? In that the Paxans didn't trust ALL the ship's inhabitants to keep it so? Just Data?

Well, who cares what they think or want? They were going to murder 1000+ people just to stay in hiding, simply because they hadn't ever encountered a Data type situation before... or so we assume. It's very probable they have murdered multitudes before, who they couldn't memory wipe. So, they're assholess, whose wishes are contingent IMHO.

In fact, keeping it entirely secret from everyone is almost inviting someone else to blunder into them, in the future, & face damning consequences. I agree. Fake the coverup. Secretly tell Data to wait until they're a safe distance, & clue everyone back in, so that proper precautions can be taken to keep those assholes isolated. Inform Starfleet, & classify it. These guys are in the business of noninterference. I think they got this. "Nobody get anywhere near those jagoffs. They'll try to kill you for even knowing they exist"

Right. I mean they’ve declared certain planets off-limits before, so…….

 

[Mojochi]

Right. I mean they’ve declared certain planets off-limits before, so…….

True, & what better motivator to get people to observe the restricted access than telling them "if you go anywhere near there, they'll knock you out & wipe your memory, if you're lucky, & if that don't work, they'll try to kill you all"?