"Enterprise" too advanced for 22nd Century

[Christopher]

Hoshi should have had a pale blue stripe, not green

It's not green, it's teal blue, the same color used for science/medical in the DS9 and post-First Contact uniforms. For that matter, the TNG science/medical uniforms were originally teal, but they seem to have made them bluer in the season 3 redesign.

and per Balance of Terror (and arguably Sulu and Chekov who fired the weapons), Reed should have been wearing yellow or green as should Archer.

What? Reed was the security chief. He wore red. Defining his job as exclusively "firing weapons" is quite bizarre.

 

[Kor]

Aren't the division colors in The Cage the same as the rest of TOS(Minus the rank structure)?

There were no red uniforms in The Cage.
And, depending on your TV, the command and operations shirts might look like the same color.

Kor

 

[Prax]

This is like EAS level scrutiny. And Timo isn't even here. Were the Cage blue uniforms really a totally different color blue than the TOS blue uniforms? Or is there a discontinuity between Enterprise, TOS, and TNG because the blue stripes on Hoshi were more Turquoise? The blue that's used in TNG, DS9, and Voyager varies. Each series used different lighting schemes, and there may have even been different blue materials used. Troi's uniform doesn't look teal or turquoise, it's a blue similar to Spock's. Bashir's uniform looks blue, while the EMH's looks teal. Apparently all the gold uniforms in TOS were actually lime green.

So on screen its safe to say the three divisions use the three primary colors, in ENT, The Cage, TOS, TNG, and so on.

*Kirk's green Hugh Hefner shirt notwithstanding.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

It's not green, it's teal blue, the same color used for science/medical in the DS9 and post-First Contact uniforms. For that matter, the TNG science/medical uniforms were originally teal, but they seem to have made them bluer in the season 3 redesign.

I would agree that teal is probably a more accurate description of the ENT, VOY & FC sciences colour than "green" However, I would say that the TNG uniforms only looked tealish in certain lighting, the low collar one was otherwise a fairly dark blue and the high collar variant was more of a blue-grey most of the time.

Either way, it still wasn't pale blue/cyan (TOS) or azure (Cage/WNMHGB) it should have been.

What? Reed was the security chief. He wore red. Defining his job as exclusively "firing weapons" is quite bizarre.

On the contrary, Reed consistently described himself as the Armory Officer (in charge of weapons operations and maintenance) which in modern terms would probably make him a warfare officer not an engineer IFAIK (in the RW, shipboard security is mostly an enlisted role). TOS split weapons and security, arguably putting them the wrong way around and there's also the issue that security wore blue during the pilot era not beige.

Suffice to say it can get a little confusing and frankly, I'd prefer a five division system, loosely based on the TMP one (Sciences, Medical, Engineering, Command (inc Comms & Helm/Nav) and Security & Services (Mess, Admin and JAG personnel would be in this Div) although OGRY and grey from TMP aren't the ideal color palette (either CGYOR or RYGBV would be preferable).

 

[Prax]

Either way, it still wasn't pale blue/cyan (TOS) or azure (Cage/WNMHGB) it should have been.

Why should it have been the same tint of blue?

 

[Kor]

Different colors give the impression of different departments or divisions, thus adding some flavor to the setting of the story. Anything more detailed than that is just minutiae.

Kor

 

[Christopher]

So on screen its safe to say the three divisions use the three primary colors, in ENT, The Cage, TOS, TNG, and so on.

No, not really. The khaki-beige operations uniforms of the pilots aren't very close to the pure red of TOS.

Also, the primary colors are red, green, and blue. The TOS colors were close to that (perhaps reflecting the novelty of RGB color television technology at the time), but not TNG. As I recall from an article in an early issue of Starlog's TNG tie-in magazine, the actual colors that were originally used for TNG's uniforms were burgundy for command, teal for sciences, and mustard for ops. As I said, the later TNG uniforms seemed to use a bluer shade for sciences, but on the DS9 and FC uniforms they went back to teal, which looks bluer in some lighting contexts and greener in others.

On the contrary, Reed consistently described himself as the Armory Officer (in charge of weapons operations and maintenance) which in modern terms would probably make him a warfare officer not an engineer IFAIK (in the RW, shipboard security is mostly an enlisted role).

That's dwelling too much on terminology. Functionally, his role was that of a security chief, the same as Tasha, Worf, or Tuvok. He commanded shipboard security teams and was in charge of defending landing parties. Despite his name, his responsibilities were never limited exclusively to firing ship's weapons. After all, remember that when they first started out, NX-01 barely even had weapons. It left port without its phase cannons installed, because it was assumed that their mission would be peaceful and that weapons would be a low priority. So it makes no sense to think they would've had an entire senior officer whose exclusive job was to shoot at stuff in space.

TOS split weapons and security, arguably putting them the wrong way around and there's also the issue that security wore blue during the pilot era not beige.

Which has no bearing on an earlier or later era, since by now it's more than abundantly clear that Starfleet changes its uniform designs and department colors at the drop of a hat.

 

[Ensign Ogahd Ahmganadai]

Aren't the division colors in The Cage the same as the rest of TOS(Minus the rank structure)?

Nope. As I said, command uses gold (it's actually green, but with the material they used, the studio lights turned it gold, so they just went with it), science uses a lighter, more silvery blue and operations uses a kind of beige/peach. DSC uses gold, silver and bronze, and I think that's pretty good.

 

[Ensign Ogahd Ahmganadai]

I gotta say, I'm continually confused as to why TOS had the pilot and navigator also firing weapons. Why didn't they have a tactical officer? I remember almost any time a job was required that the security chief would usually do, TOS had some other crewmember do it, even if it had nothing to do with their actual job, like Spock or Scotty, or occasionally Sulu.

 

[Ensign Ogahd Ahmganadai]

Which has no bearing on an earlier or later era, since by now it's more than abundantly clear that Starfleet changes its uniform designs and department colors at the drop of a hat.

Think about the TOS movie era uniforms; helm wore gold, which at that point was the operations divisional color. In just about every other uniform variant, helm was considered a position for a command officer, which actually doesn't make a ton of sense, but at least it's consistent. Also, that was the only uniform that differentiated between sciences, medical and "special services" (like security and communications). Scotty and Sulu both wore gold, Uhura and Chekov wore grey, Spock wore a very light blue that almost looked purple, and McCoy wore a very light green that almost looked blue. It was confusing.

 

[Prax]

Also, the primary colors are red, green, and blue.

The primary colors are red, yellow, and blue. Maybe you intended to say that.
Gold is a yellow, and for our purposes, it can be equated.

since by now it's more than abundantly clear that Starfleet changes its uniform designs and department colors at the drop of a hat.

They switched the yellow and red colors between Star Trek and TNG, but the primary tri color scheme remains consistent.

science uses a lighter, more silvery blue and operations uses a kind of beige

lighter, more silvery blue is still blue. In this type of in-universe level of scrutiny, we could just as easily say there were red shirts in the Cage, but we just didn't see them. I don't believe we see any security, and we never see engineering. The tri color scheme of Enterprise is still in use in TOS, then red and yellow switch roles by the time of TNG. I believe there is actual dialogue in the DS9 tribble episode that makes note of the reversal.

Edit: In summary,

Ent:
Yellow- Command
Red- Operations(and Engineering, Security)
Blue- Science/Medical

TOS:
Yellow- Command
Red- Operations
Blue- Science/Medical

TNG:
Red- Com
Yellow- Ops
Blue- Sci/Med

DS9:
Same as TNG

VOY:
Same as TNG & DS9

 

[Ensign Ogahd Ahmganadai]

In this type of in-universe level of scrutiny, we could just as easily say there were red shirts in the Cage, but we just didn't see them. I don't believe we see any security, and we never see engineering. The tri color scheme of Enterprise is still in use in TOS, then red and yellow switch roles by the time of TNG. I believe there is actual dialogue in the DS9 tribble episode that makes note of the reversal.

I'm pretty sure there were security guards in Number One's landing party trying to rescue Pike. Scotty and Mitchell both wore operations-khaki so we can safely say red was not being used at that time.

And yes, there was indeed dialogue indicating the color switch. Bashir asks "aren't you two wearing the wrong colors?" when he sees Sisko in gold and O'Brien in red.

 

[Prax]

Captain Pike had unique uniform requirements on his ship that were not shared by the rest of Starfleet. He found the mock neck most comfortable, and wanted his crew to share in that comfort. He also didn't like the rivalry between command and operations officers that was becoming a problem during his tenure. After a time he became fed up, called down to the quartermaster and said "I want everyone in beige! And anyone that was present at last night's wrestling tournament is to be put on KP."

 

[Christopher]

I gotta say, I'm continually confused as to why TOS had the pilot and navigator also firing weapons. Why didn't they have a tactical officer?

Because they didn't have the budget for it. Although I suppose they could've made one person both helm and navigation and another one security/tactical. But maybe it didn't occur to them because they wanted to portray Starfleet as an exploration service rather than a combat-oriented one. Or maybe just because they expected the captain to take the lead in the fights.

The primary colors are red, yellow, and blue. Maybe you intended to say that.

No, that's a myth that gets perpetuated in grade school for some reason. The reason there even are three primary colors is because our eyes have three color-sensitive pigments that react to different wavelengths of light -- one is most sensitive to red, one to green, one to blue. Therefore, all colors that the human eye can perceive can be created by mixing red, green, and blue light in different ratios. All three in equal quantities give you white light. TV screens and video monitors have arrays of red, green, and blue phosphors or LCDs that are used in combination to create colors. If you have a photo editing or graphics program on your computer, look at its hue settings, and you'll see that the sliders are for adjusting the levels of red, green, and blue.

Now, those are the additive primary colors, the primaries for things that emit light. There are also subtractive primary colors, which are the complements of the additive ones -- cyan (white - red = blue + green), magenta (white - green = red + blue), and yellow (white -blue = red + green). These are the primary colors used in printing, since inks and dyes absorb light; combine all three equally and you get black. Look closely at an old comic book or color newspaper photo and you'll see it's made up of cyan, magenta, and yellow dots (and black for a 4-color process). Most color film processes also use cyan, magenta, and yellow. I think maybe the myth that the primary colors are red, yellow, and blue is based on mistaking magenta for red and cyan for blue. Although it's probably just from taking every alternate color of the rainbow (ignoring indigo).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_color

Gold is a yellow, and for our purposes, it can be equated.

Gold is gold. It's more of a yellowish brown than pure yellow. In HTML colors, gold is RGB(255, 215, 0) -- red at 100% and green at 84% of maximum. Pure yellow is (255, 255, 0), equal amounts of red and green.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

That's dwelling too much on terminology. Functionally, his role was that of a security chief, the same as Tasha, Worf, or Tuvok. He commanded shipboard security teams and was in charge of defending landing parties. Despite his name, his responsibilities were never limited exclusively to firing ship's weapons. After all, remember that when they first started out, NX-01 barely even had weapons. It left port without its phase cannons installed, because it was assumed that their mission would be peaceful and that weapons would be a low priority. So it makes no sense to think they would've had an entire senior officer whose exclusive job was to shoot at stuff in space.

That's a fair point. At least in a three colour system.

Which has no bearing on an earlier or later era, since by now it's more than abundantly clear that Starfleet changes its uniform designs and department colors at the drop of a hat.

Which IMO is one of the most annoying aspects of Star Trek.

I gotta say, I'm continually confused as to why TOS had the pilot and navigator also firing weapons. Why didn't they have a tactical officer? I remember almost any time a job was required that the security chief would usually do, TOS had some other crewmember do it, even if it had nothing to do with their actual job, like Spock or Scotty, or occasionally Sulu.

The helmsman as weapons officer is somewhat odd (surely they'd have enough to worry about during battle), I do like the idea from the old Starfleet Academy game that it's supposed to be the navigator that handles weapons (their seat next to the helm would allow for optimum co-ordination of fire control). Separate security chiefs did exist, sometimes as a colateral duty (CMDR Gitto and LT's Pitcairn and Dickerson wore red like the guards, LT Freeman wore gold (a weapons officer filling in perhaps?) but were used sparingly.

Think about the TOS movie era uniforms; helm wore gold, which at that point was the operations divisional color. In just about every other uniform variant, helm was considered a position for a command officer, which actually doesn't make a ton of sense, but at least it's consistent.

Actually, as Navy Quartermasters (and Coast Guard Boatswain's Mates) can be appointed to command positions (usually of small boats, but the latter are also promotable to Line Officer) I'd say it makes more sense than it doesn't.

Also, that was the only uniform that differentiated between sciences, medical and "special services" (like security and communications). Scotty and Sulu both wore gold, Uhura and Chekov wore grey, Spock wore a very light blue that almost looked purple, and McCoy wore a very light green that almost looked blue. It was confusing.

Actually both of Fletcher's designs had more than three divisions:

TMP had SIX: Command (Captains and above only); Science & Research; Medical; Engineering & Maintenance; Helm, Nav & Comms; Security & Services.
MM had SEVEN: Command (Captains and above only); Sciences, Comms & Nav; Medical; Engineering, Maintenance & Helm; Security; Special Services (Mess, Admin?); Rescue Teams (Marines?).

 

[Prax]

Thank you that insight. I wasn't up to speed, but I must complain about your use of the word "myth."

The opening statement from your link:
"A set of primary colors is an arbitrary set ofpigmented physical media, lights or purely abstract elements of a mathematical colorspacemodel."

Establishing a set of primary colors, even if there are competing ideas on what should be established as primary, is nonetheless a useful tool. And using Yellow/Red/Blue-Purple/Orange/Green is useful to teach schoolchildren, and not inaccurate for anyone to state these "primary/secondary" as such. It's certainly not a "myth." R/B/Y have clear, recognizable contrast. It's incredibly useful for painting, and apparently printing too.

Not that any of this has an impact on the uniforms. When used R/Y/B for uniforms, it is accurate. Tuvok's uniform is yellow. Not by color code, but for the sake of simplicity. It's a shade of a yellow. Kirk's uniform likewise, whether it was actually lime-green or not.

Is Bashir's uniform actually a different shade of blue from the EMH's uniform? Or is it the lighting used? What would be the simplest way to describe it? Blue.

 

[Kor]

No, that's a myth that gets perpetuated in grade school for some reason.

Because it works with those tempera paints that they use for elementary school art projects.

Incidentally, I prefer the ancient notion that blue and green are shades of the same color.

Kor

 

[Christopher]

Thank you that insight. I wasn't up to speed, but I must complain about your use of the word "myth."

The opening statement from your link:
"A set of primary colors is an arbitrary set ofpigmented physical media, lights or purely abstract elements of a mathematical colorspacemodel."

Well, that's wrong. It's not arbitrary, it's the science of optics. As I said, it's based on the biology of the human eye, the three color pigments that interact to produce our perception of all colors. This is physics and neurology, the basic way the human eye and brain perceive frequencies of light. If we had four color-sensitive pigments, we'd have four primary colors.

The red-yellow-blue primary system may work to a limited extent, but it's an outdated scheme from before modern color theory was developed. It doesn't allow as complete a range of color mixtures as RGB or CYM primaries do, because those primaries are based on the way the eye works and thus can create every possible color we can perceive. The older system gets kept by artists and schoolteachers mainly out of tradition.

 

[Prax]

So basically, Spock wears a blue uniform.

 

[Tenacity]

The red-yellow-blue primary system

Red-green-blue system?