ENTERPRISE on Blu-Ray OFFICIAL Discussion Thread

[Mach5]

Re: The bird is out: ENTERPRISE on blu-ray

It looks surprisingly good for something made thirteen years ago!

Broken Bow premiered 11 years and 4 months ago.

Jurassic Park, on the other hand, celebrates its 20th anniversary in June, and it still looks better than 90% of all CGI done since. Although, to be fair, Broken Bow was made with a fraction of JP's budget.

 

[tomswift2002]

Re: The bird is out: ENTERPRISE on blu-ray

I don't have a source, but it has been mentioned several times that the effects were done at 720p, since that's all that could be broadcast.

720p would make sense as an output format for the entire episode for broadcast, since the majority of TV stations, even now, are broadcasting HD in 720p, and for those broadcasting in 1080i, an up convert wouldn't be as noticeable, because of the amount of compression that will be put on the signal by the time it reaches your house it will not be anywhere near what was sent out, and by the time it does reach your house, it is closer to the next lower resolution on Blu-Ray/ DVD; but for future use it would make sense for the effects to have been done in 1080p. It's just like streaming and downloading video over the Internet where the signal needs to be compressed to be more manageable. If you look at "Smallville", where the Season 1 effects were done in 480p, it is possible to make HD 720 videos for those episodes available because the compression put on the video and file will negate any problems caused by up converting, and still make them look as good as an up converted DVD.

For TV broadcast, even if the video is sent out at 720p, by the time it reaches your house, the signal will look no better than a 480p upressed DVD. A 1080i signal will look no better than a 720p signal on Blu-Ray. Same goes for Internet video. And 1080p currently is not offered because, with the amount of compression needed to transmit a 1080p signal with current ATSC and other digital standards, would result in an image that looked like it came from a VHS tape recorded on SLP.

So when Enterprise is released we will be seeing the HD versions in a much better way than we have seen it on broadcast, or in Internet streaming/download. It still won't be the full quality of the original masters, but it will be better than the current versions that are out.

 

[LOKAI of CHERON]

Re: The bird is out: ENTERPRISE on blu-ray

I have no link to back this up - but frequenting many AV enthusiast boards outside of Star Trek, the overwhelming opinion is that the ENT FX were indeed rendered at 720p - of course, this isn't proof in of itself, but nevertheless, I do feel it's the likely scenario. If done properly, it probably won't be a huge deal, and will integrate perfectly well with the 1080p live footage. I really wish somebody "in the loop" would confirm these details officially though.

 

[Aatrek]

Re: The bird is out: ENTERPRISE on blu-ray

The Enterprise VFX was done at 720p.

See here: http://trekcore.com/blog/2012/10/enterprise-on-blu-ray-first-news-emerges/

 

[LOKAI of CHERON]

Re: The bird is out: ENTERPRISE on blu-ray

The Enterprise VFX was done at 720p.

See here: http://trekcore.com/blog/2012/10/enterprise-on-blu-ray-first-news-emerges/

OK, thanks for that.

 

[jefferiestubes8]

VFX rendering

The Enterprise VFX was done at 720p.

See here: http://trekcore.com/blog/2012/10/enterprise-on-blu-ray-first-news-emerges/

here is a repost that I typed up from an article about ENT visual effects and rendering from John Carroll Online Editor. I think Aatrek you will find this a little more detailed.

No, the Enterprise effects were not rendered at 480i. They were done at full HD resolution

How do you get hold of Millimeter magazine? Do you have to have a New York background or something like that?

I've answered trevanian's quote from another subforum here
To tell you the truth I was at a studio yesterday in midtown Manhattan and I saw a current issue sitting with other magazines. It was subscribed to the studio tech guy.
You can read current Millimeter articles here:
http://digitalcontentproducer.com/

Scroll down to the bottom and you can read articles from EVERY issue back to 1997. I just did a quick search for the article with that answer:

Tales from the HD Trenches Mar 1, 2002
scroll down to "Colorist in a Hybrid World"

John Carroll, the show’s online editor at Level 3,
and in 2005 they did another article on Enterprise visual effects and the tech specs of the pipeline while shooting on HD video:

“We get matte shots coming over, and those things can take huge amounts of time to render. Our schedule doesn't always allow for it, but on the other hand, if you don't do it, you can end up with aliasing and various artifacts. Our tests showed us the difference between shots rendered out in HD and those rendered in SD and up-rezzed. So that is one reason we took the show to [Technicolor] — to be in a facility fully equipped to do HD 100 percent of the time. I always ask for HD stuff, and if we run into a render problem, we evaluate it at that time and do what we have to do to make it work in our timeframe.”

Breaking the Comfort Zone
Mar 1, 2005




let me repeat

Moore adds that this HD effects pipeline still periodically renders out standard-def elements and then up-rezzes them if a render-intensive shot would threaten the schedule.

That is season 4 (2004-2005)!

So guys and gals who want to nitpick the HD picture when the Blu-ray comes out in a couple years it will be the matte shots that will most likely show up as low resolution.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: The bird is out: ENTERPRISE on blu-ray

For TV broadcast, even if the video is sent out at 720p, by the time it reaches your house, the signal will look no better than a 480p upressed DVD.

Excuse me?

HD is digital, you know.

 

[tomswift2002]

Re: The bird is out: ENTERPRISE on blu-ray

Excuse me?

HD is digital, you know.

Obviously you didn't read the rest of my thing there, or you would see that I said the signal gets so compressed that by the time it reaches your house, a 720p broadcast signal is no better than an upressed 480p DVD. So, currently, if you watch the Enterprise DVD's on a DVD or Blu-Ray player that's upressing the video to 720p you are getting the same quality of video as you would from a 720p HD broadcast of the show.

 

[Dream]

Re: The bird is out: ENTERPRISE on blu-ray

I always thought the effects were done at 480p due to the render times?

Only DS9 and VOY's effects were done in 480 quality, which will need to be redone to stand up to HD televisions. That's why they would be more expensive to remaster than TNG, which used ship models through the entire seires.

ENT's ship effects were done in 720p, so it can at least somewhat stand up to HD.

 

[ATimson]

Re: The bird is out: ENTERPRISE on blu-ray

So, currently, if you watch the Enterprise DVD's on a DVD or Blu-Ray player that's upressing the video to 720p you are getting the same quality of video as you would from a 720p HD broadcast of the show.

Where are you pulling that from? ATSC MPEG-2 broadcasts (over the air, not recompressed cable/satellite feeds) have an 80% (minimum) - 150% (typical) higher bitrate than DVD does.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: The bird is out: ENTERPRISE on blu-ray

the signal gets so compressed that by the time it reaches your house, a 720p broadcast signal is no better than an upressed 480p DVD.

I've never seen an HD broadcast that looked that bad. I may not have cable, but I can still get some channels, including HD. And even the 720p broadcasts look pure HD.

 

[tomswift2002]

Re: The bird is out: ENTERPRISE on blu-ray

That's in theory. In practice stations tend to put a lot of compression on the signal and also load it down with lots of error correction.. Also, most stations audience comes from cable or satellite viewers, not OTA viewers. And with OTA, now that there are sub-channels stations are putting more information on one channel than before.

Just to give you an idea, for programming on digital Standard Definition 480i/p tapes at a station, you are looking at a bit rate of between 25 and 50 Mbps. Your average DVD is around 6 and 7 Mbps (for companies that cram video on, like Mill Creek, that's down 2 to 3 Mbps). Standard Def broadcast is usually, for OTA, around 5Mbps, while through cable/satellite you are looking at the 2 to 3 range.

Your average Blu-Ray plays back at around 25Mbps.

 

[Patrick O'Brien]

Re: The bird is out: ENTERPRISE on blu-ray

The price on Amazon is $77.86 as of now. Has anyone found the blurays listed for a better price on another site?

 

[ChristopherPike]

Re: The bird is out: ENTERPRISE on blu-ray

I'll be interested whether the show is in 1080p 24 frames per second, the original film speed no television station is capable of broadcasting, without converting it to approx 29 fps in NTSC. Or 720 & 1080 60hz for HD.

I'm aware CG can be very much hit and miss, compared to the actual real models we're seeing in TNG HD. Although you'd think the amount of time spent carving and painting a model, then many photographic passes through a computer, would just transfer to doing that the Lightwave equivalent at a computer screen. Time is still money, I suppose. Learning how to use a new tool and experimenting what looks real or incredibly fake. Expensive rendering of detail that wouldn't even have been seen by most of an audience in the 2000s.

Inanimate objects, metallic surfaces etc were always acceptable and indistinquishable from model work at times. The worst thing I seem to recall, were the little CG doubles of actors or human figures Enterprise did, which have really come along in recent years but fell short one or two occasions I can think of. Probably consistant with Final Fantasy-like living beings around that time and kept to a brief shot which adds scale.

 

[FrontierTrek]

Re: The bird is out: ENTERPRISE on blu-ray

We have a new article charting the differences between SD and HD Enterprise at TrekCore here: http://trekcore.com/blog/2013/02/enterprise-s1-blu-ray-trailer-hd-screencaps-analysis/

Plus - we'll have a special interview with one of the producers on the set, Roger Lay Jr, starting very soon. LOTS of cool information about the Enterprise Blu-Ray project in that! I'll post links when it goes up

 

[ChristopherPike]

Re: The bird is out: ENTERPRISE on blu-ray

^ Thanks for that. Definitely looks sharper with more contrast to me. That NX-01 shot from "Two Days and Two Nights" looks crisp in HD, whereas the same thing on DVD smears the hull with a green tint from the planet surface.

 

[ATimson]

Re: The bird is out: ENTERPRISE on blu-ray

I'll be interested whether the show is in 1080p 24 frames per second, the original film speed no television station is capable of broadcasting, without converting it to approx 29 fps in NTSC. Or 720 & 1080 60hz for HD.

I don't think I've seen anything on Blu-ray that's only 720p. I have seen 1080i60, but that's been conversions of PAL material (Doctor Who and Torchwood); everything in my collection that has originated at 24 FPS has been 1080p24.

I'm aware CG can be very much hit and miss, compared to the actual real models we're seeing in TNG HD. Although you'd think the amount of time spent carving and painting a model, then many photographic passes through a computer, would just transfer to doing that the Lightwave equivalent at a computer screen. Time is still money, I suppose.

The model work will require a similar amount of time - however, doing the actual "shooting" will be quicker in terms of user time. (You then have to wait for it to render, which may or may not be quicker depending on how complex your shot was! But that's a background task, not something the user has to stick around for.)

 

[RAMA]

Re: The bird is out: ENTERPRISE on blu-ray

STNG obviously looks better in the blurays, but wow who knew Enteeprise would be this improved as well! Some amazing detail that makes the CGI look better than ever.

 

[FrontierTrek]

Re: The bird is out: ENTERPRISE on blu-ray

Here is Part 1 of our special interview with Roger Lay, Jr. - one of the producers who worked on this set and produced the new bonus features:

http://trekcore.com/blog/2013/02/exclusive-roger-lay-jr-interview-part-i/

In this part, Roger discusses attitudes to Enterprise, how to improve on the (already ample) bonus material from the DVDs and the special "In Conversation" piece between Rick Berman & Brannon Braga.

Lots more coming tomorrow where we'll discuss the 720p vs 1080p VFX debate, audio commentaries, cast reunions and music from the show.

 

[ChristopherPike]

Re: The bird is out: ENTERPRISE on blu-ray

^ That made for a great read. With they're never having been a behind-the-scenes book about the development of Enterprise, that 3-part doc and those 90 minutes "In Conversation" with Berman and Braga have a hell of a lot of ground to cover! Sounds amazing. Too many records to set straight and fan speculation that's taken as fact. I'm as much a sucker for accepting some of that, without questioning it or knowing who's responsible for what and why.

I imagine the pre-orders for Enterprise on Blu ray aren't as impressive as TNG. Part of that is the show's reputation (pointless pretending it isn't), but part is undoubtedly the perception this show is more or less just an off-the-shelf release of HD sourced episodes and not a whole lot less expensive for not getting an extensive makeover. I'm a Day One purchaser because I'm a huge fan of Enterprise and this cast, however part of a minority doing so I'm sure. Once Season 1 is out for a while and the price gets marked down, plus Star Trek In Darkness raising the profile - I'm sure CBS (& companies involved in these Blu ray extras) will find their no longer taking a hit pouring effort into a lost cause.

Thanks to all those involved in this project. Hard work that doesn't sound dull from documentary makers' perspective.