Enterprise Evolution from TOS to TMP

[David cgc]

Norsehound had an interesting alternate take on the Constellation, theorizing that the ship as we saw it had been inelegantly modified over its lifetime, and made a more graceful version of the ship as it may have appeared when it was new, with fewer bolted-on details and full-length nacelles.

 

[publiusr]

I wish he’d do more of those DC ships. I miss the updates to that thread.

 

[Mres_was_framed!]

For as important as it is, there are very few references to the Refit Constitution Class. We do get to see a few others on screen, but the model was never redressed (kind of like TOS).

USS Ahwahnee (NCC-2048)
USS Eagle (NCC-956) I correct this to 1956, a similar error to some other registry issues in TNG and DS9
USS Emden (NCC-1856)
USS Endeavour (NCC-1895)
USS Enterprise (NCC-1701)*
USS Enterprise (NCC-1701-A)*
USS Korolev (NCC-2014)
USS Olympia (NCC-21576)*
USS Yorktown (NCC-1717)*

It is unknown how many of the older ships survived and were refit. So this list should be considered partial.

Is this the Operation Retrieve information? I don't recall every hearing of the Olympia (at least not as a Constitution-class) before, especially with that number.

The fact that ships on that chart are Constitution-class has been somewhat in dispute, in that the Constitution-class symbol on the chart might just stand for a "ship." (Maybe using an outdated image just like the blueprints of the Enterprise in star Trek III).
I have previously mentioned that I considered the possibility that, since dialogue calls them both cruisers and cargo-carriers, the Wambundu class is the variant with the cargo-doors in place of windows and the sideways nacelles, seen as a desktop model in TNG. Is this where the Olympia comes from? If so, then the Drake and Flemming would be others for this list.

 

[David cgc]

Olympia is from DS9’s “The Sound of Her Voice.” The class wasn’t explicitly identified, but we saw wreckage of the ship and it was the destroyed Enterprise saucer from TSFS. Sure, that’s ambiguous, that saucer has also been used for Galaxy-class wreckage, and there are other classes with similar saucers, but I like the idea of Constitution-class ships in the 24th century, so I go with it.

 

[yotsuya]

Is this the Operation Retrieve information? I don't recall every hearing of the Olympia (at least not as a Constitution-class) before, especially with that number.

The fact that ships on that chart are Constitution-class has been somewhat in dispute, in that the Constitution-class symbol on the chart might just stand for a "ship." (Maybe using an outdated image just like the blueprints of the Enterprise in star Trek III).
I have previously mentioned that I considered the possibility that, since dialogue calls them both cruisers and cargo-carriers, the Wambundu class is the variant with the cargo-doors in place of windows and the sideways nacelles, seen as a desktop model in TNG. Is this where the Olympia comes from? If so, then the Drake and Flemming would be others for this list.

The Olympia is based on what we see on screen being the Star Trek III partially destroyed Enterprise model. The rest of the appearance doesn't jive with it being a Constitution Class ship. Not unless it was a ship they activated for the Borg emergency and then gave it an assignment since it was reactivated.

But the Operation Retrieve chart uses 3 starship symbols. A large refit Constitution Class, a small refit Constitution Class, and an Excelsior Class. So the distinction in class is represented by different images. The two sizes seem to have some other function because on one sheet the Emden is smaller than the Potemkin and on another they are the same size. I think the size indicates the role and/or likelyhood the ship is to be involved in the operation. I consider those pages to be as accurate as any Okuda-gram in any episode. The Odyssey is discussable because it is not a clearly a Constitution Class ship when it shows up in DS9 season 5.

 

[publiusr]

Operation Retrieve
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Operation_Retrieve
https://memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/Operation_Retrieve

I love those charts.

 

[ChallengerHK]

Has anyone else found it odd that they use printed paper charts?

 

[Unicron]

Not necessarily. I've seen a number of futuristic settings where paper and other "primitive" materials are still used, if not always as regularly as advanced technology. Depends on the context and how it's used.

 

[publiusr]

Maybe left so a passing spy could see it.

Having both Fed and Klingons conspire FOR war…seems like Founders got an early start.

 

[Mres_was_framed!]

The Olympia is based on what we see on screen being the Star Trek III partially destroyed Enterprise model. The rest of the appearance doesn't jive with it being a Constitution Class ship. Not unless it was a ship they activated for the Borg emergency and then gave it an assignment since it was reactivated.

But the Operation Retrieve chart uses 3 starship symbols. A large refit Constitution Class, a small refit Constitution Class, and an Excelsior Class. So the distinction in class is represented by different images. The two sizes seem to have some other function because on one sheet the Emden is smaller than the Potemkin and on another they are the same size. I think the size indicates the role and/or likelyhood the ship is to be involved in the operation. I consider those pages to be as accurate as any Okuda-gram in any episode. The Odyssey is discussable because it is not a clearly a Constitution Class ship when it shows up in DS9 season 5.

I'd rather not consider the Olympia as a Constitution-class ship with that number, even though I don't have a problem with Constitution-class ships in the TNG era. Now, if it was an Excelsior variant, and we were using my idea that it was ship 576 of build 21, then that would work fine for me.

Since the ST:III wreckage got re-used a lot, I would not consider it a confirmation of class. The secondary hull model used at Wolf-359 would be a much stronger indicator of class to me.

Regarding the Operation Retrieve blueprints: Oddly enough the difference between the Excelsior and the others ships was always easier to see for me than the names and class images of the other ships. I felt that they specifically made the Excelsior look different, perhaps because it was the only one at that time, whereas they just used Constitution-class images for everything else.

Without much of a reason why, I just don't like the idea that there were Constitution-class ships in build 18 or 20. Especially 20, because the Excelsior is a part of this build. (The FJSTM does this too, but in my mind it shows what ships were planned, and then by the time they actually got to the 18's, they had given those ships different names and were building different classes.) Correcting the Eagle to 1956 I can see, though. I would prefer to believe that Starfleet called in Miranda-class and Soyuz-class ships for this, for variety, but the chart shows what it shows.

Has anyone discussed this matter with Micheal Okuda? Was it really his intent that there be Constitution-class ships with numbers starting with 9, 18, or 20? Even in TOS-R, no Constitution-class ships were ever actually shown onscreen with numbers above 16 or 17, and I assumed the 16's were older ships that had been upgraded to a Constitution-class appearance, even if they were perhaps different on the iniside.

In particular, the 956 of the Eagle is odd for its time. If ship number 1017 could either be built or refit to TOS Constitution-class appearance, I guess 956 could be, but now we are talking about having to do it again to reach TMP refit appearance also. Is that what he meant?

 

[yotsuya]

I'd rather not consider the Olympia as a Constitution-class ship with that number, even though I don't have a problem with Constitution-class ships in the TNG era. Now, if it was an Excelsior variant, and we were using my idea that it was ship 576 of build 21, then that would work fine for me.

Since the ST:III wreckage got re-used a lot, I would not consider it a confirmation of class. The secondary hull model used at Wolf-359 would be a much stronger indicator of class to me.

Regarding the Operation Retrieve blueprints: Oddly enough the difference between the Excelsior and the others ships was always easier to see for me than the names and class images of the other ships. I felt that they specifically made the Excelsior look different, perhaps because it was the only one at that time, whereas they just used Constitution-class images for everything else.

Without much of a reason why, I just don't like the idea that there were Constitution-class ships in build 18 or 20. Especially 20, because the Excelsior is a part of this build. (The FJSTM does this too, but in my mind it shows what ships were planned, and then by the time they actually got to the 18's, they had given those ships different names and were building different classes.) Correcting the Eagle to 1956 I can see, though. I would prefer to believe that Starfleet called in Miranda-class and Soyuz-class ships for this, for variety, but the chart shows what it shows.

Has anyone discussed this matter with Micheal Okuda? Was it really his intent that there be Constitution-class ships with numbers starting with 9, 18, or 20? Even in TOS-R, no Constitution-class ships were ever actually shown onscreen with numbers above 16 or 17, and I assumed the 16's were older ships that had been upgraded to a Constitution-class appearance, even if they were perhaps different on the iniside.

In particular, the 956 of the Eagle is odd for its time. If ship number 1017 could either be built or refit to TOS Constitution-class appearance, I guess 956 could be, but now we are talking about having to do it again to reach TMP refit appearance also. Is that what he meant?

I guess we look at the NCC numbers differently. I see any unused number as available for any class ship. What I have in my mind is a mix of what Jefferies and FJ intended and how the numbers actually got used (mostly in TNG). The numbers are not sequential and once a registry is authorized it could be built as anything.

In TOS the Republic was never specified as a Constitution or Starship class ship. But it has been included in that and is likely the museum ship that Picard was telling Scotty about in Relics. it also ended up in some of the graphics. Then we had Constellation on screen. So with that, 1371 doesn't seem like a stretch.

We know some mistakes were made with some registries from time to time. I consider the Eagle in the Operation Retrieve and other screens to be a glitch. 1956 puts it in line with the others.

I look at the FJ lists as proposed. These were the ship proposed and the funds authorized, but most of them did not get built. Half the first series were built using 16XX numbers.

I look to the 1920's Constitution Class cruiser for how this panned out and how Starships are built more like the old wooden ships than the more modern sea going ships. The US Navy stole the name Constitution and relegated the still extant Sail Frigate to Old Constitution. They were going to name the ships after that class. But names got shuffled and Constitution was pushed to the 5th ship of the class changing the lead ship (and class name) to Lexington. Then the class was cancelled. A new treaty meant they couldn't build those ships. So they found a loophole in the treaty and converted the two most complete ships (one and three) to aircraft carriers. They kept the same hull and engines (much of what was below the hanger deck remained unchanged) and built a new superstructure on top. So what came out had very little in common with what the original design was. The other 4 ships were scrapped. A similar thing happened to the Aircraft Carriers after WWII. We jumped from CV-43 (Coral Sea) to CV-59 (Forrestal). 44-57 were WWII builds that were cancelled. 58 was the USS United States which was started and then cancelled. I've always been amused that Forrestal has more in common with Lexington and Saratoga than with any of the aircraft carriers in between them. Speed, hull to flight deck (on 4-57 the hull only went up to the hanger deck). Plus the Saratoga proved so hard to sink. So there is precedent for skipping lots of numbers.

So my personal history for the Constitution Class is that once they were ordered, a small number in the 17xx range were built. Several other hulls were either in a state to be converted or had not really been started so we have 1017, 1371, and several 16xx range registries. Plus the 17xx have several gaps. Having ships in Star Trek VI that have 17xx, 18xx, 19xx and 20xx registries makes complete sense as they were either refit (Yorktown, Potemkin and Kongo) or new builds. For both the Constellation and Excelsior classes we have the class ship followed by a large gap to the next known ships, both are in the 25xx range. And at the same time we have the Grissom and other Oberth class in the 6xx range. This fits with FJ's ship lists (and it should since he was still almost cannon when they did that). We have a handful of his ships that are canon due to bridge displays or background dialog. So it is canon that ships were running around with 5xx and 6xx registries during the first three movies as well as up to 21xx. This spread just gets worse in TNG. There is a general increase in registries over time, but at any give time they can cover a wide range.

And to explain some of the odd numbering in later series, I see the registry number being changeable. A ship can be taken out of service and put in storage and then when it is reactivated it might require a new name and number depending on what is in service at the time. Case in point is the USS Lakota. We only ever see two of that design. We never (in canon) hear what happened to the Ent B. So as far as I'm concerned it was a one off alternate Excelsior Class ship that was retired after a period of time - perhaps never losing the stain of the ship where Kirk died - and it was put back in service due to the Borg and so it required a new name and number. This has precedent in the US Navy. The Frigate Constitution being renamed to name a new ship that and the several different registries of the USS Olympia.

So for me, the jumble caused by not planning these things out in advance and just doing them as needed and be molded into something that makes and odd sort of sense. This also explains some of the ships with two registries (and even different classes) in service at about the same time. It hides many oddities without conforming to any standard other than "things can change".

 

[publiusr]

I like to think the numbers were changed in the post TUC era to where size determines the numbers, not legacy

 

[yotsuya]

As far as I know, except for a few selective vehicles, the registry numbers are completely random. I don't know any logical reason for some of the numbers we see. Some of them are follow up to previous numbers. Some are completely different. There's an occasional pattern for a ship or two and then the next ship is something different.

 

[yotsuya]

I had a few moments today to take a swipe at the pylons and had a good laugh. I spotted the two issues right away and was able to fix them. I had the flare at the base slightly wrong. Too wide and going back too far. I fixed that and one other issue with the top and bottom drawings and I think I can proceed now. But it so helped having the right photos to reference. Thankfully the movies themselves have the views I needed. And I had gotten so close before. I knew it didn't look right, but just some slight tweaking and it changed everything.

And I reconfirmed that the vertical alignment of the nacelles is off on Kimble's drawing. The nacelles were attached lower. Also the pylons get thicker at the top. A nice shot in TWOK proved that.

Now that I have the shapes it is time to start the detailing. First Richard Taylor's Refit (with Jefferies bridge) and then Andrew Probert's final revisions. Plus the slight changes for the 1701A (a small change to the secondary hull deflector grid and the changed markings).

 

[publiusr]

I can't wait to see your drawings.

 

[Ottens]

My working theory is that when Taylor came in, he took Jefferies Phase II design and redesigned the pylons and nacelles.

I believe this is accurate. Check out this interview Tracy Tobias did with Taylor in 2005. He says about his work on the nacelles:

My approach was to kind of give it a stylization that was almost art deco. I spent weeks drawing and re-drawing the nacelles. I mean the front-end of the nacelles is almost a 1940 Ford grill. But I tried to make it have a very art-deco feel; for example I added the parallel lines along the edge of the saucer. Things became more elongated and more elegant than the television series version.

 

[Maurice]

They clearly started with Jefferies’s TV refit and refined the contours. The only really big differences are the nacelles, hangar deck, impulse engines and—eventually—bridge superstructure and lighting array on the bottom.

 

[publiusr]

I believe this is accurate. Check out this interview Tracy Tobias did with Taylor in 2005. He says about his work on the nacelles:

I love FORGOTTEN TREK and your Never Was Blog.

 

[Ottens]

Thank you!

 

[yotsuya]

Yes, Forgotten Trek is awesome. Love your recent redesign. Such a great source for Phase II.