Mike Okuda did. He placed it in 1969 beginning with the development of the first "isograted circuit."
Enterprise as a prequel to the reboot movies?
- Thread starter borgboy
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While attractive (for continuity) to split off the JJverse in this way, I'm not sure why the branching of timelines would happen both forwards and backwards in time. It is supposed to be a "Y" shaped branching off, isn't it? As such the two universes would share a common past. Yes there would still be relics in JJ's past from the Prime Timeline (such as Data's head) but they would originate from the PT just as much as Nero, Oldspock and the Red Matter. Since the split didn't remove them from the JJverse (Back To The Future style!) then I'm having trouble seeing why anything else should disappear as well.
No real relevance to the Trek universe but Robert Silverberg's time travel novel "Up the line" held that objects from the future could continue to exist in the past as long as there was some probability of them coming into existence. Under this theory, Data's head is under San Francisco but if nuKirk and company, through some misadventure, accidently cause the death of one of Dr. Soong's ancestors it would cease to exist even in the past. Silverberg even ended the novel with the narrator popping out of existence in the middle of a se
I think Janeway herself made that pretty clear---Starling's computer revolution is apart of the Prime universe since without it computer technology would've been vastly different or still on the level of the calculus in the 1990's. As she says it part of "our" history.
The impression I got was that there wouldn't have ever been any kind of computer technology without Starling. The entire computer revolution of the 20th century is a direct result of his actions.
Pretty much this.
But I've always liked the theory the effects of the Narada's arrival translated backwards in time for the Alternate Reality. As now the entire future has been changed, thus all the time travel events whose starting point is after 2233 wouldn't happen. There's no Voyager to go back in time, no Sisko as Gabriel Bell, nothing. Although there'll probably be a whole slew of different time travel events altering the past. None of the took place in the Prime Reality have been erased in Nutrek resulting a different past up to the Narada's arrival. Even though that's what triggered the changes in the first place. So roughly the events of Enterprise probably took place but probably not exactly like they did in the Prime Timeline, and possibly without the Temporal Cold War which could arguably result in a less eventful more successful mission. The butterflies (or lack thereof) from the removal of all these time travel events translate let the NuTrek writers keep references to all the old stuff in, without necessarily constraining themselves to the idea that everything had to happen the exact same way down to every last detail.
But I thought it was explained that it's not just a branching timeline, it's a completely different quantum reality ala "Parallels"? The explanation being that it was pretty much just identical to the Prime Reality up until Nero shows up (Or only branched off into being its own reality instead of the usual timeline shenanigans after Nero shows up because Red Matter Lightning Blackholes) which is why there's no universe ending paradoxes or anything? They aren't native to the Alternate Reality to begin with, so there'd be no reason for them to disappear. Heck it could've been the Reality where Worf came in ninth in the bat'leth tournament until it got mucked up. The big problem being that no one is ever really consistent in using terms like reality, universe, and timeline, and what have you.
Or everything happened.
Or nothing did.
Or both.
It's all just a big ball of wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey stuff. The more you try to explain the further down the rabbit hole you go and the more convoluted things become. You should see some of the Continuum boards
Ah, I misunderstood. The view from the creators is that Nutrek is the result of a Y-split from the original continuity, so I assumed we were discussing that. I however am more of the opinion that it was a distinct timeline to begin with (there are just a few too many difference IMO for it to be otherwise) but that is certainly not a debate I want to restart here!
But...
If the Narada does indeed come smashing into an alternate timeline though (call it "Universe-J"), wouldn't that create a Y-split of its own? You'd have the original "J" in one direction, with the altered "J" in the other (which we follow in the new movies).
The "changes in the the present affect the past" model would only apply to a single, overwritable timeline in Universe-J which would not fracture or split as interlopers turned up. The difficulty there is that events in Universe-J's past are already part of the nu-crew's lives. Consequently, the second the Narada appeared there would be changes to the people in front of our very eyes (ala "Year of Hell")
OTOH, the "lightning storm in space" was already underway when Trek'09 began. Perhaps the changes had already taken place?
This is getting very timey wimey
But...
If the Narada does indeed come smashing into an alternate timeline though (call it "Universe-J"), wouldn't that create a Y-split of its own? You'd have the original "J" in one direction, with the altered "J" in the other (which we follow in the new movies).
The "changes in the the present affect the past" model would only apply to a single, overwritable timeline in Universe-J which would not fracture or split as interlopers turned up. The difficulty there is that events in Universe-J's past are already part of the nu-crew's lives. Consequently, the second the Narada appeared there would be changes to the people in front of our very eyes (ala "Year of Hell")
OTOH, the "lightning storm in space" was already underway when Trek'09 began. Perhaps the changes had already taken place?
This is getting very timey wimey
So much of Trek's history requires time travel in order to have happened at all. Unless Kirk was there making Edith cross the street and go splat, the Nazis win WWII. Unless Braxton crashes in the 60's, there are no PC's. Unless the Xindi attack Earth, the Delphic Expanse continues to expand until it fills the quadrant, and space in Trek would be pink and give you a nasty rash. Unless War Picard sent Tasha back through time with the Enterprise-C, there would be no TNG. Unless Spock goes back in time and hangs out with his younger self, the Enterprise has an Andorian first officer.
I think if all of that was undone, there would be nothing remotely recognisable left.
Wibbly-wobbly, timey-whimey indeed. One begins to understand why Starfleet goes batshit crazy in the 29th century and starts merging temporal duplicates and arresting or even attempting to kill people for things they haven't done yet.
I think if all of that was undone, there would be nothing remotely recognisable left.
Wibbly-wobbly, timey-whimey indeed. One begins to understand why Starfleet goes batshit crazy in the 29th century and starts merging temporal duplicates and arresting or even attempting to kill people for things they haven't done yet.
Ah, I misunderstood. The view from the creators is that Nutrek is the result of a Y-split from the original continuity, so I assumed we were discussing that. I however am more of the opinion that it was a distinct timeline to begin with (there are just a few too many difference IMO for it to be otherwise) but that is certainly not a debate I want to restart here!
But...
If the Narada does indeed come smashing into an alternate timeline though (call it "Universe-J"), wouldn't that create a Y-split of its own? You'd have the original "J" in one direction, with the altered "J" in the other (which we follow in the new movies).
The "changes in the the present affect the past" model would only apply to a single, overwritable timeline in Universe-J which would not fracture or split as interlopers turned up. The difficulty there is that events in Universe-J's past are already part of the nu-crew's lives. Consequently, the second the Narada appeared there would be changes to the people in front of our very eyes (ala "Year of Hell")
OTOH, the "lightning storm in space" was already underway when Trek'09 began. Perhaps the changes had already taken place?
This is getting very timey wimey
Well technically it would've started the second the anomaly appeared on the Kelvin's sensors and she altered course to investigate.
Well Edith wouldn't have been alive if McCoy hadn't gone back in the first place
The computer thing is really dubious especially since at the end of the episode that timeline is seemingly erased, and even if it did happen then and wouldn't happen in NuTrek that's what? A delay of a few years until the Intel 4004 goes on sale?
The delphic expanse was originally supposed to continue to grow iirc, and Starfleet stopped it in the 26th century. And that doesn't seclude the possibility that the sphere builders wouldn't try going back in time to stop a future defeat anyway.
"Yesterday's Enterprise" And "Yesteryear" probably aren't going to happen the NuTrek reality anyway since their time travel events take place entirely after the Narada's arrival.
Like I said, I agree with you that everything only changed after the Narada arrived. The reverberating effects theory isn't without its flaws or problems, I just think it's interesting
It is true that a lot of Star Trek history depends on apparent interference by errant time travellers - I say apparent, because I believe that in most cases the actions of the time travellers were pre-destined to be a natural part of recorded history in the first place. Time's Arrow is an obvious example of this sort of thing (AKA the Novikov self-consistency principle), along with Assignment:Earth and All Our Yesterdays and nothing they do seems to have an affect on known history.
Episodes like Yesterday's Ent, ST8:FC or TCOTEOF which seem to "rewrite" history on multiple occasions somehow (is the timeline like a floppy disc or somesuch?!) are IMO further examples of the Novikov model, just ones more easily open to misinterpretation. After all, the entity in TCOTEOF is called the Guardian of Forever - and yet in his first appearance does a pretty poor job of guarding anything! Unless...what if this was part of the "cosmic plan" all along? The guardian knows that Kirk, Spock and McCoy are an extant part of Earth history in the 1930s and needs to ensure they play their part, to "guard" the timeline's intergrity. Once the guardian has persuaded Kirk and Spock to follow McCoy (though lies and misinformation about the consequences of failure), their actions play out exactly as they should, as they always did.
As I alluded to above, I cannot accept a whole universe being overwritten and rewritten by the actions of a mere single being. You can bring timeline splits and parallel quantum realities into the debate I suppose, but that rather renders moot the consequences of any actions the time traveller may take, as well as removing the drama of any "we must save history!" stories. Fortunately, Star Trek employs more than one model of time travel - Time Squared for example, where the timeline does indeed seem to overlap itself and in fact get rewritten - history seems to visibly change before O'Brien's eyes. I don't see this as the same sort of problem as the "disc drive universe" as this effect is kept very localised - a specific area of empty space, over a 6-hour period (and managed by an unknown entity). Episodes like Visionary or Relativity are similarly localised in what they affect.
It certainly is and has given me a lot to think about, thank you! It also gives rise to the third main model in Star Trek and the one we see in StarTrek09 - AKA "the biggy", a change in the timeline so massive (akin to going back and killing your own father) that a new timeline is created, splintering off from the original. These events are naturally rare (most time travel events being covered by the first 2 models) but in the film the McGuffin which causes the splinter is itself rare and unusual - the hitherto unknown "Red Matter". Just what this stuff is (sensibly) never explained, but it does seem to be a source of incredible power - extracted from the glue of the multiverse itself, perhaps? That may be why it's such a large ball, this could be the smallest amount its possible to capture!The reverberating effects theory isn't without its flaws or problems, I just think it's interesting
Having said all this, there are a lot of Star Trek episodes that deal with time travel and there are probably more models out there. It's certainly a well mixed bag!
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