Enterprise-A Questions

[Blip]

I like to think the old girl had a few years left in her, and that yes, without the damage wrought by Khan she would have been eligible for minor refit (bringing her internal systems up to at least be on a par with the Saratoga's internals in TVH) and then yes, send her out again, be it for another five year mission or even a role closer to home, if the SF Operations felt they needed to minimise wear and tear on a 40yr old hull.

ETA: The idea of an alternate timeline resulting from a diversion at this point in history is a fascinating one, it would have implications for the entire quadrant and beyond...

 

[Ithekro]

Something as simple as Chekov noting the planetary oddity in the Ceti Alpha system and not beaming down to the planet, recalling Khan might be down there, and Reliant going on to the next system for Project Genesis. Maybe there is still a need to call in the Enterprise for something on that training cruise that gets Kirk out of his funk without losing Spock or damage to the ship.

Such a timeline would also leave open the question about what would happen to whatever ship or parts that would have become the Enterprise-A?

 

[Blip]

Tbh I expect if such a divergence  were to be depicted then the whereabouts of materials originally ending up as the Ent-A would be among the very last of things on everyone's minds

I think the idea would make for an awesome new thread, as there's bound to be plenty of events folks can suggest would be impacted.

 

[DSG2k]

As a hypothetical, what would have been the plan for the USS Enterprise (NCC-1701) and her crew had they not gone to investigate Khan?

Frankly, I think this deserves its own thread thanks to the crew aspect.

The ship is easy enough to ponder . . . she was a training ship with a grand history and there never would have been an Enterprise-A (well, unless Kirk snatched the training ship Enterprise for something else grand at some point, but one would think that harder to do for most other movie plots as we saw.

The Whale Probe needed someone from outside the system . . . maybe Kirk could've been aboard a training cruise and taken her to the past, though the movie would've played out much differently. If we're still trying to destroy the ship, then we just crash the Enterprise into the ocean and blow the shuttlebay doors. A big tank in the cargo bay from TMP is all good. (A cargo bay in the saucer would be better for a nice separation scene, but would make less sense.)

ST5 wouldn't make much sense with a training ship, nor would ST6. However, the Nexus event from Generations could work, especially if she wasn't carrying live torpedoes. (What the hell was a training ship doing with live torpedoes, anyway?)

 

[Dukhat]

As a hypothetical, what would have been the plan for the USS Enterprise (NCC-1701) and her crew had they not gone to investigate Khan? (Or had the USS Reliant not gone to Ceti Alpha V)
The Enterprise was currently a training ship for the Academy under Captain Spock. McCoy brought up the question of just putting an experience crew back on the ship. Was she just in rotation as a training ship and thus they were planning on sending her back out for another five-year mission once these cadets graduated?

Sulu was set to be given command of USS Excelsior once it entered service. Chekov appeared to be first officer on USS Reliant, so he is fine. Mr. Scott is taking care of the Enterprise under Spock. Kirk has his desk job as an Admiral. Uhura and McCoy are a question. They are likely teaching at the Academy but are still viable for active duty. McCoy has not gone back into early retirement.

One assumes Starfleet has ordered what would eventually become the USS Enterprise (NCC-1701-B). But it would be a while before that starship was finished. Even if Excelsior flew correctly on her trail run without Mr. Scott monkeying up the works (they may still have asked him to come over to supervise getting the thing ready for her run after Enterprise got back from her training cruise, as Enterprise presumably would not need that much time to get ready again without being in combat with Reliant).

Without Spock being dead, no Genesis Planet, no reason to steal the Enterprise, what is the logical course from there? The Whale Probe is still enroute in a number of months. Sybok is still stirring unrest on Nimus III.

Frankly, I think this deserves its own thread thanks to the crew aspect.

The ship is easy enough to ponder . . . she was a training ship with a grand history and there never would have been an Enterprise-A (well, unless Kirk snatched the training ship Enterprise for something else grand at some point, but one would think that harder to do for most other movie plots as we saw.

The Whale Probe needed someone from outside the system . . . maybe Kirk could've been aboard a training cruise and taken her to the past, though the movie would've played out much differently. If we're still trying to destroy the ship, then we just crash the Enterprise into the ocean and blow the shuttlebay doors. A big tank in the cargo bay from TMP is all good. (A cargo bay in the saucer would be better for a nice separation scene, but would make less sense.)

ST5 wouldn't make much sense with a training ship, nor would ST6. However, the Nexus event from Generations could work, especially if she wasn't carrying live torpedoes. (What the hell was a training ship doing with live torpedoes, anyway?)

Here's what I think. The Enterprise NCC-1701 had been refitted 15 years before TWOK, and had been in service for at least 20 years before that. Its role as a cadet training vessel was basically its swan song. By 2286, Starfleet had introduced its newest top-of-the-line vessel, the Excelsior, and it seemed obvious that many more ships of this class were going to be mass-produced over time (which is exactly what we see in TNG/DS9 etc.), and that the 1701 was eventually going to be retired to make way for the next generation Enterprise-A, which would have been a standard Excelsior by at least the tail end of the 23rd century. That would have most likely been when the 1701 would have been retired. But instead, it gets destroyed in 2286 years before the Enterprise-A would have been completed. So because of the Whale Probe incident, Starfleet rewards Kirk with an 'interim' Enterprise, now christened the 1701-A, with the understanding that it would just be a temporary command until the Excelsior class Enterprise was completed (now known as the 1701-B.)

However, I still have absolutely no good ideas as to why the Ent-A was malfunctioning so much. The only reason I can come up with based on on-screen information is that the ship was older (per the original TMP refit bridge seen at the end of TVH), and then had a major upgrade only to find that things didn't work right. This happens in real life all the time when computers an software are upgraded. Unfortunately this theory precludes that the Ent-A was not brand-new. The other options are that the ship was hastily built, or was one of the last Constitution classes off the line and used substandard/outdated tech, was sabotaged, or was infected with a virus. In-universe, I would prefer the last scenario simply because the ship didn't look old on the inside, and the symptoms it was having in STV seemed quite indicative of a computer virus. Of course it makes no sense for Admiral Bob to send a ship in such a state on a rescue mission when the Excelsior was literally sitting right next to the Enterprise in Spacedock, unless Bob intentionally sabotaged the ship to get Kirk killed...

(Sorry, that was one of Timo's idiotic serial contrarian theories, lol)

And as for why the ship was decommissioned so early (assuming it was a newbuild)? My theories are that it was a political move, or that the ship was still suffering from problems and it just wasn't worth trying to fix a technologically outdated ship.

 

[Ithekro]

Either the ship was retired, or the name on the ship was retired, so that the originally planned successor, the Excelsior-class USS Enterprise, could be commissioned.

 

[DSG2k]

The only reason I can come up with based on on-screen information is that the ship was older (per the original TMP refit bridge seen at the end of TVH), and then had a major upgrade only to find that things didn't work right.

The bridge wasn't quite TMP standard, but I get what you're saying.

Unfortunately this theory precludes that the Ent-A was not brand-new.

Well, at least the bridge was not brand new. Since we never see any other control systems of that type on the rest of the ship then perhaps that bridge just wasn't a good fit, but was chosen for closest available commonality. Then they had to remove the patches for it after going ahead and swapping, leading to some of the oddities observed in ST5 (except the log recorder . . . that was silly).

Just one of a thousand possibilities.

(Sorry, that was one of Timo's idiotic serial contrarian theories, lol)

Never hurts to explore outside the box.

 

[Blip]

And as for why the ship was decommissioned so early (assuming it was a newbuild)? My theories are that it was a political move, or that the ship was still suffering from problems and it just wasn't worth trying to fix a technologically outdated ship.

Tbh regardless of what we believe about her origins, be it an entirely new build (dubious afaic, based on the speed with which it would have had to be constructed), an already partially built and hastily completed surplus spaceframe, or a renamed existing vessel (distasteful, imho ), there's no reason we couldn't say that the Ent-A was retired early for a combination of all the reasons:

1) Systems being not-quite up to par,
2) Political symbolism in light of the Khitomer Peace Conference,
3) Extensive damage caused by Chang,
4) The Enterprise-B already being under construction

At least three of which could have hastened an already scheduled decommissioning.

I'm hesitant to include "a Fleetwide initiative to retire the entire class" in that list, because I just know there are plenty who'll cite the (purported) Connie at Wolf 359, and the (purported) saucer wreckage of the one in DS9 "The Sound of Her Voice"... and if I'm honest I'm not entirely opposed to the idea of some of the post-TMP new-build spaceframes remaining in service with intermittent updates.

 

[Dukhat]

I'm hesitant to include "a Fleetwide initiative to retire the entire class" in that list, because I just know there are plenty who'll cite the (purported) Connie at Wolf 359, and the (purported) saucer wreckage of the one in DS9 "The Sound of Her Voice"... and if I'm honest I'm not entirely opposed to the idea of some of the post-TMP new-build spaceframes remaining in service with intermittent updates.

Not to sound too pedantic, but neither the ship at Wolf 359 nor the Olympia are canonically established to be Connies. We saw part of a damaged saucer in one scene (used again as the Olympia), and part of a damaged engineering hull in another scene in BoBW. Both the angles of the shots and the extensive amount of damage doesn’t give away the origins of those models. At the very least, we could assume that they share Connie components but are actually different classes. Unless we saw a completely intact Connie (and the only time that would have happened is if they had used the model as the Stargazer as was originally intended), then we have no evidence that the class lasted beyond the end of the 23rd century.

It would have been nice if they’d used the TMP Enterprise as the Bozeman for Cause and Effect (since the original plan was to use a TOS Connie), because then we would have at least gotten a date for the entire class’s decommissioning.

 

[Blip]

Not to sound too pedantic, but neither the ship at Wolf 359 nor the Olympia are canonically established to be Connies. We saw part of a damaged saucer in one scene (used again as the Olympia), and part of a damaged engineering hull in another scene in BoBW. Both the angles of the shots and the extensive amount of damage doesn’t give away the origins of those models. At the very least, we could assume that they share Connie components but are actually different classes. Unless we saw a completely intact Connie (and the only time that would have happened is if they had used the model as the Stargazer as was originally intended), then we have no evidence that the class lasted beyond the end of the 23rd century.

You're welcome to stick with your own headcanon of course (I heartily endorse it, in fact - I'm no hypocrite! ), and I have no particular desire to change any minds, but I do feel compelled to point out that little evidence does not equate to no evidence.

Since irl we know where those components come from -regardless of the damage applied to them- coupled with the fact that no one has ever officially contradicted the possibility of them being among the last surviving refit spec Constitutions (refit spec, not literally refit; imho that would be highly unlikely!), I myself am perfectly comfortable treating them as such until/unless the idea is officially debunked.

(Of course, I fully agree that it's entirely possible -plausible, even- that the model parts could have been intended by the production teams to represent parts of different classes of ship, but the fact is we don't have an answer from them either way. For all we know, someone may have wanted to suggest a few ageing examples survived. Until someone fesses up, the point is moot. )

It would have been nice if they’d used the TMP Enterprise as the Bozeman for Cause and Effect (since the original plan was to use a TOS Connie), because then we would have at least gotten a date for the entire class’s decommissioning.

If they'd used a TOS Connie we'd doubtless have a faction of fandom splitting hairs and claiming that the retirement date "only applied to the pre-refit variants"... I wouldn't have minded a new TOS era design, but then I picture poor Kelsey Grammer having to squeeze into a velour uniform!

I am quite glad that the refit wasn't used (although we know that TPTB were against that kinda thing anyway). I doubt they'd have been able to film the model as she deserved on the show's budget, and I have no real wish to see a cheaper miniature of the refit repeatedly getting 'sploded against the Ent-D nacelle.

 

[Ithekro]

We know the Enterprise-A has a seemingly standard configuration bridge (TMP standard) with new touchscreen interfaces (Okudagrams) in place of the interfaces seen on the NCC-1701 and the USS Reliant. It was replaced with a new module by the time the ship was sent to Nimbus III, and yet another module by the time of the Praxis explosion. Whatever was wrong with the ship after it left Spacedock lead to a least one bridge module replacement, and possibly two. It would not seem out of place that once Enterprise returned to Earth after the Nimbu III Incident, Mr Scott would have tracked down some of the computer issues, and maybe they needed to replace the entire computer core (thus needing to remove the bridge module) and the new core needed a newer interface thus a new bridge module. After that was fixed the starship worked perfectly fine, allowing the ship to go out on some three or five year mission or whatever Starfleet had the Enterprise do between that refit and her crew's planned retirement shortly after the events on Khitomer.

I still like to think the Enterprise-A had a better warp core than her predecessor. Maybe not transwarp drive like the Excelsior, or maybe it was a derivative based on the technologies being tested. This would allow it to reach the "Galactic Core" (again) relatively quickly. Mr Scott was proud of the engines, and that didn't seem to be a problem for the ship at all at any point.

 

[Dukhat]

You're welcome to stick with your own headcanon of course (I heartily endorse it, in fact - I'm no hypocrite! ), and I have no particular desire to change any minds, but I do feel compelled to point out that little evidence does not equate to no evidence.

Since irl we know where those components come from -regardless of the damage applied to them- coupled with the fact that no one has ever officially contradicted the possibility of them being among the last surviving refit spec Constitutions (refit spec, not literally refit; imho that would be highly unlikely!), I myself am perfectly comfortable treating them as such until/unless the idea is officially debunked.

(Of course, I fully agree that it's entirely possible -plausible, even- that the model parts could have been intended by the production teams to represent parts of different classes of ship, but the fact is we don't have an answer from them either way. For all we know, someone may have wanted to suggest a few ageing examples survived. Until someone fesses up, the point is moot. )

I personally would have no problem if it was canonically stated that Connies were still in use in the 2360’s, and that both the BoBW ship and the Olympia were of that class. I mean, we saw a shitload of Mirandas in DS9, so why not Connies?

If they'd used a TOS Connie we'd doubtless have a faction of fandom splitting hairs and claiming that the retirement date "only applied to the pre-refit variants"... I wouldn't have minded a new TOS era design, but then I picture poor Kelsey Grammer having to squeeze into a velour uniform!

I think the whole premise of actually seeing a TOS Connie in TNG would alleviate any dating issues.

I am quite glad that the refit wasn't used (although we know that TPTB were against that kinda thing anyway). I doubt they'd have been able to film the model as she deserved on the show's budget, and I have no real wish to see a cheaper miniature of the refit repeatedly getting 'sploded against the Ent-D nacelle.

I don’t remember if the refit Enterprise model was available to be filmed when Cause and Effect was being produced. I seem to recall that there were problems with the model between TFF and TUC (lighting, paint issues, etc.) It was obviously easier to modify the Reliant model to make it a new class than to either build a new TOS Connie model or use the refit.

 

[Blip]

I personally would have no problem if it was canonically stated that Connies were still in use in the 2360’s, and that both the BoBW ship and the Olympia were of that class. I mean, we saw a shitload of Mirandas in DS9, so why not Connies?

One could say it was stated, visually.

I think the whole premise of actually seeing a TOS Connie in TNG would alleviate any dating issues.

I refuse to believe you typed that with a straight face.

I don’t remember if the refit Enterprise model was available to be filmed when Cause and Effect was being produced. I seem to recall that there were problems with the model between TFF and TUC (lighting, paint issues, etc.) It was obviously easier to modify the Reliant model to make it a new class than to either build a new TOS Connie model or use the refit.

Yep, there were issues with it between the two movies - some crayon-chewing dipshit painted half of it dark grey. But, that's almost certainly immaterial to the refit not even being considered (iirc the STVI team had no idea about the damage until they uncrated the model). TPTB simply didn't want it on the show. As you know, they'd already nixed the idea once, and likewise didn't want the Ent-E on DS9. Some nonsense about the show's visual identity, and "cOnFUsiNg TeH FaNs" or somesuch utter bollocks from the halfwits at the top...